Decertifying Global Warming Skeptics

The 'conclusion' has been made and nothing will change the minds of global warming believers, even colder weather. It's a catch-22. If it's a warm year, it's global warming. If it's a cold year, it's still global warming.

Dan, Im a "believer" based on a preponderence of evidence ive seen, and i disagree with your assessment. Presumably you're aware of the distinction between "global warming" , climate change, and anthropogenic forcing. Don't assume that us "believers" don't get it as well. They're very seperate issues. I frankly have no idea where Darren and others get the idea (from the media??) that 99.9% of scientists are firmly convinced in anthropogenic influence as the chief cause of global warming. From what i've seen in academia and the professional meteorology world over the last decade, there's a ton of skepticism among serious scientists over the whole idea. But, we are at least careful to keep the issues clear, not muddle them as your statements seem to imply. There is little debate over the idea that the earth is warming, much more over how big an influence human activity is, and even more on what effects the activity will have in the future.
 
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LOL! I don't know about "reigning" though.

Oh yeah, that's Tim. I knew that. I just read your sig and thought....

As for the catch 22, I think it's more of a media and communication issue. Remember back in the late 80's and into the 90's when everything was El Nino's fault? then La Nina? These cyclic patterns, though broadly accepted, got blamed for everything from legitimate weather anomalies to the Super Bowl winner. Sensationalism sells. Anyone on this board who has ever submitted material or offered an interview to television programming can attest to this. Much of the media just isn't interested in responsible journalism. Not to dismiss her credentials, but Heidi Cullen seems to have more in common with the media's sensationalism than any productive scientific discussion.

I know this topic touches the realm of the political, so I'll just mention this in passing for anyone interested. I found it amusing: Heidi's rant was actually discussed on Neal Bortz's radio show.
 
I've put together a few questions of my own for Heidi on my own page:

  1. If skeptics should be denied certification, what about their on-air presence? Should that too be quashed?
  2. Do you have any co-workers who don’t toe the line on anthropogenic global warming? Should they be fired?
  3. Before being granted a degree in climatology or meteorology (another version of “certification”), should some sort of oath be taken regarding global warming?
  4. Why no discussion of other influences on the earth’s climate that may be responsible for warming: termites, solar variability, cattle emissions, volcanic activity, etc…?
  5. Is peer review, healthy skepticism, and other forms of critique utilized by meteorologists and climatologists the world over not a cornerstone of science?
 
I frankly have no idea where Darren and others get the idea (from the media??) that 99.9% of scientists are firmly convinced in anthropogenic influence as the chief cause of global warming. From what i've seen in academia and the professional meteorology world over the last decade, there's a ton of skepticism among serious scientists over the whole idea.

First of all, nowhere did I state a figure like 99.9%. I see no need to distort my message to make your point. On the other hand you say there is "a ton of skepticism among serious scientists" (quite a quantifiable, scientific, and impressive amount!)

First of all, all good scientists are skeptical. Confirmation Bias is a big problem (in humans in general) and Good Science takes care to eliminate it from the process of scientific inquiry. That does not mean that scientific inquiry leads only to indecision and uncertainty. Evidence accumulates and conclusions (at first tentative, then stronger, and finally undeniable) are generally arrived at over time.

Where there is "a ton of skepticism" is among the general public, who are generally more uninformed. This is understandable, but willful ignorance is inexcusable. I would expect that stormchasers would more closely model the scientific community than the general public on that score, but I may be off-base.

Stan makes some good points regarding the differences between "global warming", "climate change" and "anthropogenic influence" however "global warming" and "climate change" are often used interchangably, even in science. And I don't think you are going to hear the term "anthropogenic influence" a whole lot in mainstream media. Climate change probably is cyclical, but human impact on this planet has never been anything like what it has been in the last two hundred years (since the industrial revolution). People understand that you can't sit in a garage with the door closed and the car engine running forever. Eventually the concentrations of carbon monoxide will grow to the point that there are dire consequences. (Most) people understand that you can't just continue to pump industrial waste into Lake Erie before it becomes literally flammable. Yet somehow people can't extend their grasp of that concept to the atmosphere, thinking that man-made CO2 can be absorbed by it forever, with no ill effects. But enough of "common sense" in the common man. Let's get back to the scientists:

Good Science is peer-reviewed before being published. An article published in Science magazine took a look at all of the papers in the ISI database with the keywords "climate change" between 1993 and 2003. There were 928 (peer-reviewed/published) papers:

The 928 papers were divided into six categories: explicit endorsement of the consensus position, evaluation of impacts, mitigation proposals, methods, paleoclimate analysis, and rejection of the consensus position. Of all the papers, 75% fell into the first three categories, either explicitly or implicitly accepting the consensus view; 25% dealt with methods or paleoclimate, taking no position on current anthropogenic climate change. Remarkably, none of the papers disagreed with the consensus position.

Admittedly, authors evaluating impacts, developing methods, or studying paleoclimatic change might believe that current climate change is natural. However, none of these papers argued that point.

This analysis shows that scientists publishing in the peer-reviewed literature agree with IPCC, the National Academy of Sciences, and the public statements of their professional societies. Politicians, economists, journalists, and others may have the impression of confusion, disagreement, or discord among climate scientists, but that impression is incorrect.

So where is this "ton of skepticism among serious scientists"? Apparently not among those who study and publish on the subject of Climate Change.

Now let's look at another group: Weather Professionals. Not all weather professionals study climate change. But one would expect them to be "up on" the subject more than the general population. Here's a news story from yesterday: Global warming dissenters few at U.S. weather meeting ? A few quotes from that article:
Researchers who hold such contrary views do not appreciate being lumped together with flat-Earthers. They are legitimate scientists who question the mainstream, but they are a distinct minority. . . . "I think there is largely agreement on the fact that over the last 30 years, that much of that warming has been attributed to human activities, in other words, greenhouse gas emissions," said Tony Socci, a American Meteorological Society senior science fellow.

He said those who denied the connection were either "badly informed as to the scientific center or consensus, or in some cases perhaps (they are) just not wanting to be informed.

I think it is interesting that (again) the media does not call it News that the vast majority of scientists are in agreement. The news is the "distinct minority" who are not yet convinced. This is an example of how the reporting in the news contributes to the confirmation bias of the "non-believers". If they want to maintain their doubts they will give enough weight to the "distinct minority's" opinions so that (in their minds) it actually outweighs the "vast majority's" opinion. The capacity of the human mind to rationalize is indeed remarkable.

However, this brings up another reason why a particular meteorologist's viewpoint should have NO BEARING on whether they get get AMA Certification. It does not help the cause of Good Science. It allows skeptics to say (as was also expressed in the article):
D'Aleo said there was an element of peer pressure to toe the party line.

"A lot of them are not willing to speak up because it might endanger grants and jobs," he said.

The ill-advised proposal to tie AMA Certification to one's views on global warming plays right into this sort of accusation. An opponent of such a view might point out that there is a TON of money out there for any scientist whose research might prove the other side, or at least cast significant doubt. However, look as you may, you won't find much of it in the peer-reviewed/published world of Good Science.
 
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I think a distinction needs to be made on this thread between the global warming issue and the issue of whether humans or the earth's climate cycle is the cause.

It is pretty well established that 'global warming' is happening, that is, that earth's mean temperature is currently experiencing a rise. I don't think anyone is opposed to that statement. It is the assertion and resulting 'doomsday' hysteria that 1.) man is responsible for this, and 2.) the expected climate change will be catastrophic for earth, that are the 'sticking points' for me and many others. I do not see data that convincingly shows that man is responsible for global warming nor that the earth's resulting climate change, if any, will be disastrous. Again, I am not taking sides yet, but there needs to be more definitive proof of this before a consensus is made and any actions are taken at such great cost and scale.
 
I agree with you Dan. However, I think that distinction has been made in this thread. (for one thing, that is what the "anthropogenic forcing" is that Stan was referring to).

I think it is fair to say that the majority of scientists recognize that human causes are a factor. There is little debate on the effect of greenhouse gases (which is why they are CALLED greenhouse gases). There can be no debate on the fact that humans have led to an increase in the concentrations of those gases from what they were in 1750. The main thing that we do not yet know is, what percentage of global warming is cause by humans as opposed to other factors (whether natural, or other non-human). It may be some time before a concensus on that is reached, but it would appear to be a significant amount. ([FONT=Times New Roman, Times]Chlorofluorocarbons, for example are 100% human-caused).[/FONT]

What it is a no-brainer to say is that humans have no hope of affecting the part of global warming that may have natural causes. It is beyond mankind's capabilities to "dial down" the sun, for instance - if that is part of the cause. However, if the human factor is the "straw that breaks the camel's back" or something that could lead to a "tipping point" of no return, then it would behoove us to try to get a handle on the things we can control/reduce (regardless of what that exact percentage turns out to be).
 
I do not see data that convincingly shows that man is responsible for global warming nor that the earth's resulting climate change, if any, will be disastrous. Again, I am not taking sides yet, but there needs to be more definitive proof of this before a consensus is made and any actions are taken at such great cost and scale.

You don't believe the 262,974 hour GFS?:mad:
LOL!
 
LOL, now THAT's responsible journalism. Take the truth from the Onion every day! :p
 
You don't believe the 262,974 hour GFS?:mad:
LOL!

You mean this one?

gfsd.gif


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Darren,

I don't know where the Reuter's reporter was, but I was at the AMS meeting and there were many, many skeptics making their views known.

Mike
 
All of this seems to be revealing that a lot of people are treading such a fine line between healthy skepticism and arrogant, pseudo-scientific political punditry. There's plenty of honest ways to be skeptical about GW, such as saying "I don't think X has been considered enough, I don't understand why it can't be Y, or there's not enough evidence yet Z isn't a dominating contributor"...and there's certainly no reason to threaten anyone's accreditation for it.

On the other hand, I won't say who, but a certain TV met is gaining a lot of sudden personal popularity by baselessly attacking the motives and ethics of scientists with whom he disagrees, and is repeating some anti-GW talking points that have long been debunked. His motives are clear: personal popularity, science be damned. And it's working, he's scheduled to appear on all sorts of far-right-wing shows like Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity. And in the process he's representing himself as an AMS-certified scientist repeating completely debunked notions. Obviously if the AMS sanctions this person for unethical behavior, suddenly the AMS will have been perceived as taking sides. So an open question: should the AMS sanction people like that?
 
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Here are my words about global warming...

First of all, I do not believe that recent weather events have anything in common with global warming. In Québec we had a similar ice storm in 1998 in it was simply caused by circumstantial events (the storm track was so we got freezing rain and then it became cold, Great Lake humidity etc..). I don't believe we can say that 2005 hurricane season was caused by global warming too.

But we see some effets here in Canada you guys surely don't see. Some places see animals they never saw before because they were living at lower lattitude. Deer hunting was almost inexistant in mid latitude part of the province. Now Mont-Laurier's region is going to be a popular hunt spot in a few years while 10 years ago people there were asking 'what's this?' when seeing any deer. In nothern part people say they see many unknown bird species they never saw before. This is something happening constantly each year. I think this is a a global warming effect.

But I think we can speculate on global warming causes....

I will not speculate on how much human has to do about it. But I am sure that we would not be talking about glass-effect gases if we were managing them correctly. We could release as much CO2 as we want if we did plant enough trees to handle our emissions. The problem I see with Kyoto is that it says to slow down emissions, and that it doesn't accept any other way to handle them. I don't think it is possible to effectively reduce CO2 emissions but I think it is possible to become "ecologically neutral" on this aspect.


These were my 2 cents. Sorry if it is so long most of you won't read it.
 
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Wow. I don't know where to start. I guess I'll start with saying Heidi Cullen is way off base. We need a healthy dose of skepticism in any debate. Galileo was put under house arrest for writing how the sun was the center of the solar system, Others were burned at the stake. Science has always been under attack and usually due to politics or religious beliefs. Even when a person thinks he "has the truth" figured out that "truth" can be reinforced through debate and perhaps made stronger. There will always be some who simply (to take a Jack Nicholson quote) can't handle the truth. The only way we can advance science and knowledge is to openly debate it. How ironic it would be to have 100% of the population believe man is warming the planet only later to find out man is actually somehow cooling it (and there a few who believe this). Science has apparently shown the planet is warming but the methods could certainly be challenged. I read an AMS paper suggesting a significant "urban" heat island effect in Barrow, Alaska. I would certianly like to see more work figuring out the urban heat island component of warming given most of our sensors are in or very near populated areas. I'd like to see more work dealing with one monster of a greenhouse gas that gets little respect: water vapor. Agriculture pumps a lot of the stuff in the atmosphere and we talk about it frequently for chase set-ups. This brings new meaning to "water pollution". I've also read about glaciers taking a hit due to increasing amounts of dust (smaller albedo). I'd be curious to read more on jet contrails and their potential cooling effects. There is a lot to learn. The only thing we really know right now is the average global temp has gone up a degree over the last 100 years but I don't think we really know how it got there.
 
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