Dancing with the Devil (Why no basements?)

[Lanny Dean]

Paul,
Simply put. I could not agree with you more...very well said.

 

[Jason Foster]

To get back on the subject of basements....there is also the consideration of cost. Simply put, it is much cheaper to build a reinforced CMU or poured-in-place concrete structure within the home than to excavate the ground. Here on the east coast and other areas the frost line is deep enough that a basement is a nominal extra cost and with land space at a premium, fully finished basements add value or less land. But in the middle part of the country where we are basically talking about....I think as an architect I would rather spec a reinforced structure (aka storm closet) than add the cost of a basement.

 

[rdale]

my question is this... Whose to say those affected and unfortunately suffered catastrophic loss didn't in fact heed the warnings? Heeding a warning is not a guarantee that one won't experience tragedy despite their best attempt at protection.

Of course not, but if you live in a mobile home, and a tornado warning is issued - you stand a MUCH better chance of surviving if you 1) heed the warnings and 2) take shelter. If you stay in your home, then you did NOT heed the warning.

I have not heard the circumstances of these deaths, but the last tornado deaths in our area were 2 people who lived in a manufactured home, and went to bed during a tornado warning. That's not what I consider "heeding the warning"

 

[Paul Hadfield]

Of course not, but if you live in a mobile home, and a tornado warning is issued - you stand a MUCH better chance of surviving if you 1) heed the warnings and 2) take shelter. If you stay in your home, then you did NOT heed the warning.

I have not heard the circumstances of these deaths, but the last tornado deaths in our area were 2 people who lived in a manufactured home, and went to bed during a tornado warning. That's not what I consider "heeding the warning"

As unfortunate as the first hand event you mention is, was anyone there to explain why or when those people chose to go to bed. Perhaps they were just living life as normal people yet completely oblivious to the inherent danger and simply caught off guard? It happens to everyone, everywhere at any given point of time. For every incident there is an explanation so to automatically dismiss the unfortunate outcome of others as bad decision making without having firsthand knowledge available is of great disservice to the victim.

As for choosing to stay in a manufactured home, again, until we learn how to read minds or at the very least, interview victims and know what they were uniquely thinking, we'll never know. Perhaps choosing to remain indoors was the wiser decision or at least the lesser of either evil? Most normal people (unlike ourselves) are petrified of travel during severe wx. Add in the adrenaline pumping sound of a siren going off with it's immediate "fight or flight" response and i'd hedge to bet that the great majority of people will instinctively duck for cover indoors regardless of structural integrity. I wouldn't fault anyone for making that decision nor that of choosing to reside in a mobile home especially since most are never visited by tornadic winds. My sister lives in one, understands the risk and is perfectly content because it falls within her means. She is a college graduate with a decent paying job and lives a very responsible existence. She does not feel entitled to a tornado shelter nor owed one by either the park owner or government. As evident by the aerial shots i've seen from this most recent event, the EF4 to set down in S OK appears to have done quite a number on well built structures along with manufactured homes so does it really make a difference? At what point are we going to shed the stereotype that person's living in structures without adequate protection are somehow disadvantaged or that their loss equals ignorant decision making?

 

[rdale]

Most normal people (unlike ourselves) are petrified of travel during severe wx.

That's why many people consider it a good idea to have a desginated shelter in trailer parks, so you don't have to travel. You leave your home and go to the shelter.

i'd hedge to bet that the great majority of people will instinctively duck for cover indoors regardless of structural integrity.

That's been proven wrong time and time again at trailer parks with shelters. People (sometimes too many for the shelter) do take advantage of it.

the EF4 to set down in S OK appears to have done quite a number on well built structures along with manufactured homes so does it really make a difference?

If you are asking "Does being in a stick-built home offer more protection from a tornado than a manufactured / mobile home?" ABSOLUTELY!!!

 

[Paul Hadfield]

That's why many people consider it a good idea to have a desginated shelter in trailer parks, so you don't have to travel. You leave your home and go to the shelter.

That's been proven wrong time and time again at trailer parks with shelters. People (sometimes too many for the shelter) do take advantage of it.

If you are asking "Does being in a stick-built home offer more protection from a tornado than a manufactured / mobile home?" ABSOLUTELY!!!

That's not a stereotype, it's the truth. In any type of damaging wind event, you are at significantly more danger in a structure without adequate protection.

Ignorant? No. Poor? Yes. Anyone that is told a tornado is coming, but doesn't do everything possible to protect themselves and their families to the best of their ability, is making a bad choice.

um... you got me? Look, in a perfect world everyone would have their own convenient personal safety location and everything would fall right into place and we could pass judgment on those who deviate from what is the prescribed course of action. Such is not the case and every situation is unique. Whether or not adequate protection (or time for that matter) is available and a person makes a choice based on reasons that may or may not fall within the realm of what is considered "the right thing to do" without our fully understanding why, then who are we to judge? This is especially true of victims we learn about through the media who didn't seek available shelter yet for reasons we'll never know, perhaps they weren't able to. I'm not disputing your facts, no one is, but disrespecting people because of an unfavorable outcome that could've been avoided if they would've done "this" or "that" instead of "the other thing" is not right.

edit: Your poem is nice Karla and I mean no disrespect towards your point.

 

[rdale]

but disrespecting people because of an unfavorable outcome that could've been avoided if they would've done "this" or "that" instead of "the other thing" is not right.

No one is disrespecting anyone. If you are told that a tornado is coming, and you don't make any move to protect yourself or your family, then I think it's a bad choice. I'm not sure I understand where that's confusing.

 

[Paul Hadfield]

No one is disrespecting anyone. If you are told that a tornado is coming, and you don't make any move to protect yourself or your family, then I think it's a bad choice. I'm not sure I understand where that's confusing.

When making blanket statements about the general public as was the case within replies #2 and #6 is it too much to do so with a degree of tactful respect? This would be especially true for sensitive matters involving personal loss. Those who are most commonly referred to in these situations are everyday folks worthy of our empathy and yes, even the brazen idiots who comprise something on the order of less than 1%. You're an intelligent, well meaning, powerful person and I apologize for allowing myself to get this far but please, have some compassion.

 

[rdale]

I do have compassion, otherwise I wouldn't be in the business of saving lives. Don't read emotion (or lack of it) into an Internet forum reply.

 

[Connor McCrorey]

Don't read emotion (or lack of it) into an Internet forum reply.

That's true. Half of the arguments people get into online are started simply because the reader gets the wrong message. Just saying.

Now for the subject of this thread. My parents always told me we couldn't have a basement here in North Texas because the ground shifts too much, with our tendency to alternate between months of rain and then many more months of drought. I don't know how true this is, it's just what I've heard.

 

[Karla Dorman]

Conner,

I'm in North Texas, and that's what I've heard all these years: ground shifts too much or the water table is too high or too expensive to build or - on and on.

Back in the day, older homes had basements, or a storm cellar at least. Now, none to be found.

Would be nice to have underground shelter made available. Would bring me comfort, anyway.

Thanks to all who've commented - some thought provoking arguements for and against (you know what side I'm on LOL).

 

[Bob Hartig]

I think probably one of the most effective measures that could be made, in attempt to at least get a few more people to heed warnings, is a campaign by the NWS with assistance from local media. You always hear them pushing to get people to heed warnings, but now they kind of have a new card to play; By pushing the increase in warning precision over the last couple years and how the new warning system uses polygons highlighting only areas that WILL be at risk from the storm. I hate to use "fear" as a tool to get action, but I agree with a lot of what has been said, people don't think it will happen to them, and a lot of that mentality has been created over the years, thanks to MANY false alarm warnings...I think with some campaigning regarding the new precision and accuracy of warnings, some of that "oh we’re always under a warning and nothing happens" can be avoided; as people will begin to understand when they hear the warnings for their area now, it's more likely they will be directly impacted, thanks to the increased warning accuracy and the new method of drawing the warnings.

I finally took the time to read through this thread. Some good comments here, among them being the one above by Dustin. I like his idea. The "it won't happen here attitude" may be statistically strong, but the counter to it is, "It will happen somewhere, in many places across the U.S.," and that is irrefutable. With improved accuracy in the warnings, people need to understand that the consequences for ignoring them are narrowing down to a personal level. And working the fear factor is exactly the right thing to do. It's realistic. People truly will be scared as hell when their house starts blowing apart, particularly if they've failed to heed the warnings and and not taken protective action. The video and creative resources to drive home the point are beyond impressive.

 

[rdale]

With improved accuracy in the warnings, people need to understand that the consequences for ignoring them are narrowing down to a personal level.

I agree with you in theory - but unfortunately the warning systems still haven't kept up. NOAA Weather Radio should be able to filter by zipcode, and only alert if your zip comes up in the polygon. Many EM's still sound all sirens for their county, even if the warning doesn't touch the county!

Until those things change, then the improved accuracy doesn't always get to the end user.

(And if you think this thread is long, wait til next week when someone asks why a Tornado Emergency wasn't issued for a confirmed wedge tornado moving into a town after sunset!)

 

[Connor McCrorey]

(And if you think this thread is long, wait til next week when someone asks why a Tornado Emergency wasn't issued for a confirmed wedge tornado moving into a town after sunset!)

Like... Lone Grove? I know they had plenty of warning time, but it's been hard not thinking I could have done more after confirming such a monster on the ground...

 

[John Hudson]

I think the water table level/flooding issue is probably a stronger argument for not having a basement it TX/OK than the ground shifting.

Up here, with our annual temperature range of ~ 60 degrees Celsius, I've seen the gate posts move three or four inches during a cold snap. The ground heaves so much that water mains sometimes snap like match sticks, and the roads get disfigured until you think you're cruising on the moon.

In spite of all that, we have basements in most homes here.


John
VE4 JTH