Chasing with RED

[Phil Bates]

I hear you Jason, it's hard to get started with the RED for less than $40K. However, just 3 years ago, we spent $150K on an Sony CineAlta F900R. Things are getting better, it's just taking a while. Also, since the cost of lenses are not falling as rapidly, the lenses for future cameras could easily cost more than the camera. This is why the Scarlet Fixed Lens Cam will be a great opportunity at less than $5K.

Phil

 

[Skip Talbot]

Thanks for sharing this with us, Phil. I was thoroughly impressed when I saw you guys in action and some of the shots you got from that camera. Keep us posted on how Annette does. You can get some exquisite high contrast shots from high plains storms this time of year.

 

[Lanny Dean]

Phil, I am surprised that you actually posted in this forum of your requests and intertests. One question for you....do you or have you sold to production outlets?

Of ourse we both know the answer to that.

Having worked with you already I hold slight animosity towards your representation here. I find it very interesting that you state that there is not and will be no overlap when infact ANYONE can buy said 20 sec. HD shot of a tornado including production houses and the like for $299.00.

The fact of the matter is that THERE WILL BE AND ALREADY HAS BEEN OVERLAP into "our" sales. We don't just bid to media, Phil, we also sell to productions....some of the very same productions and people you sell to.

Need I go further?

For those that might be interested, please feel free to give me a call and I would be glad to aid in the direction this is going.

Lanny

BTW, How did "the flag" shot turn out? Curious to know what kind of return you have seen from that or any of the stuff we got you when you were with us? LMAO!

Since we are a stock footage company, it will go into our library. However, our business model is not typical for what storm chasers are used to. We offer footage for movies, TV, events, game developers, corporate and commercials. Almost everything BUT editorial/media/news. In fact, in our world (royalty-free licensing) tornado shots are almost unheard of.

Here's an example: One of our largest selling titles is Storm Front. ("http://www.artbeats.com/collections/237"[/COLOR]]http://www.artbeats.com/collections/237) (We not only license single clips, we also sell collections of 30 or so clips. They cover nearly every category from Healthcare to Fire Effects, to Aerials of cities.) Storm Front is nothing that anyone on this forum would be impressed with. Simple storms, rain shafts, lightning and threatening clouds. Nothing dramatic. Yet, in my world this material sells very well, even just SD. But it must be shot well on stable tripods with high-end cameras. (Storm Front was shot on 35m film).

It is fascinating to me that there is almost no overlap between my customer base and those who license footage from storm chasers. After selling footage now for 14 years, is only THIS YEAR that we have started representing older storm chaser footage shot in Beta-SP and DV SD formats.

To capture a tornado or even interesting supercell structure like massive cumulus, shelf clouds, beaver tails, crawling lighting, etc. in 4K will be a huge deal for us.

Phil

 

[Rob H]

I'd like to hear more about RED and especially see some storm video/stills from it, so I hope this doesn't get derailed. Phil isn't requesting anything from me or directly affecting my chasing, so I'm having a hard time seeing anything sinister in his representation here. He never said there would be no overlap; he was just surprised at the lack of overlap. Obviously, Phil's business and Lanny's business overlap somewhat, but I'm not convinced it's germane to the conversation at hand.

 

[Lanny Dean]

I'd like to hear more about RED and especially see some storm video/stills from it, so I hope this doesn't get derailed. Phil isn't requesting anything from me or directly affecting my chasing, so I'm having a hard time seeing anything sinister in his representation here. He never said there would be no overlap; he was just surprised at the lack of overlap. Obviously, Phil's business and Lanny's business overlap somewhat, but I'm not convinced it's germane to the conversation at hand.

"It is fascinating to me that there is almost no overlap between my customer base and those who license footage from storm chasers. After selling footage now for 14 years, is only THIS YEAR that we have started representing older storm chaser footage shot in Beta-SP and DV SD formats".

Not trying to derail the conversation, just trying to keep it honest.

The real fact of the matter is that this will have an affect for ANYONE AND EVERYONE who sells any kind of weather video. Plain and simple.
If you do not sell video or photos then this should not be an issue for you at all and nothing to worry about. However, for those that do I will paint the picture for you....just imagine Original Media contacting you wanting video from the wedge fest in SD. You quote them 30 sec for $1,500-$2000 They tell you they will get back to you becuase they have a small budget, meanwhile they see that Phil and his company have said video for $299.00 with rights free. Now, who do you think they are going to purchase from?

I might add that I have seen first hand what the raw video from the RED looks like...it is amazing and that is certainly another point to make....even if you are shooting with an HD camera (3ccd or cmosprofessional or prosumer) it in now way will have the same quality as the RED. Now, I ask you again, who do you think they will buy from?

 

[Robert Dewey]

However, for those that do I will paint the picture for you....just imagine Original Media contacting you wanting video from the wedge fest in SD. You quote them 30 sec for $1,500-$2000 They tell you they will get back to you becuase they have a small budget, meanwhile they see that Phil and his company have said video for $299.00 with rights free. Now, who do you think they are going to purchase from?

What's the problem with that? I thought the point of business was to compete and defeat...

 

[John Erwin]

Phil,

Welcome to the board, and thank you for bringing your experiences with RED to us. While even the Scarlett is out of my "snack bracket" currently, I do like to keep on top of technical innovations and it's nice to see this has made it's way into the chaser world.

I'd also like to commend you on your business acumen and unique licensing arrangement. As a business owner myself (non-weather related) I can attest to the importance of innovation, competitiveness and carrying oneself publicly in a professional manner. Too bad not everyone works that way.

Cheers!

 

[MatthewCarman]

I think that is asome that someone is going to get footage using RED. Nothing wrong with using the best tools out there if you can afford them.

 

[Jason Foster]

Lanny...I can appreciate anyone with a point of view...but seriously man...not in the equipment area...let's keep this kind of stuff in Bar & Grill. It would interesting to see the various points of views, so maybe you would like to start a new thread...but here...I just want to hear and discuss the methods and materials.

 

[John Wetter]

Good lord Lanny, take it back a notch. Let us geek out in peace here in the Equipment section...

 

[Phil Bates]

Sorry if I opened a can of worms. I am happy to discuss Lanny's issues in another thread.

Worms, get back in there!

Phil

 

[Phil Bates]

The RED camera settings give us lots of options. For those interested, here are some guidelines I discussed with Annette before this shoot:

1. When shooting lightning in the evening, turn the shutter off. The sensor needs to be exposed the longest amount of time each frame. No sense in losing flashes that happen in-between frames when shooting 1/60th of a second at 30fps. In other words, exposure should be 1/30th of a second at 30fps.

2. When lightning is happening constantly, shoot in real time. Otherwise shoot time lapse, frame rate is discretionary. Again, exposure should match frame rate.

3. For crawling anvil lightning, try 3K at 60fps. A little bit of slow motion could be interesting. Again, 1/60th exposure in this case.

4. When shooting cloud structure, I prefer positioning close and shooting wide, rather than distant with a tele. Preferred lens will be the 17-35mm, but 12-24mm is also an option. Shooting wide also gives a better perception of contrast. There will be less haze and more sky gradation visible. Shooting a little extra wide is OK because we can crop a 4K image to get the best composition or even add a camera move.

5. Shoot 1 to 5 fps on timelapse shots. We probably won't need that many frames, but but the extras will allow us to frame blend in After Effects, thus giving the perception of motion blur in the clouds. For example, every 3 frames are blended together to make one composite frame. This is also a great way to reduce noise.

6. If it is windy, show a bit of horizon if you can. The ragged edge of a horizon will give me an anchor point to stabilize if the camera jiggles. We can always crop it out later. Also, in the wind, shoot timelapse with a high shutter speed, at least 1/250th, that way if the camera jiggles, you won't get motion blur from the jiggle. Sharper images are easier to stabilize.

7. When shooting a tornado, the priority shot is to be locked off on the tripod. Get the wide shot first 10 to 15 seconds in length. Then zoom in on the base.

8. We discussed shooting either 4K 16:9 (4096x2304), with Redcode 28 or 4K HD (3840x2160) with Redcode 32. The second option is a higher data rate, but less resolution. We weren't sure which would actually be best, so we'll shoot some footage with each and compare later.

9. When using the 17-35mm lens, set focus then lock the focus ring with gaff tape. Any cloud structure no matter how close or far will be sharp throughout the zoom range. Not so for the 24-80mm lens.

10. Try not to shoot with the iris all the way wide or all the way stopped down. The lens performance is worse at the extremes.

***

If this helps, great! If you have other methods or procedures, I am all ears (or eyes).

Phil

 

[Lanny Dean]

Lanny...I can appreciate anyone with a point of view...but seriously man...not in the equipment area...let's keep this kind of stuff in Bar & Grill. It would interesting to see the various points of views, so maybe you would like to start a new thread...but here...I just want to hear and discuss the methods and materials.

My bad guys....I guess I forgot exactly where I was
I would be happy and would rather enjoy discussing the "sales" issue in another section, Phil.

 

[Phil Bates]

We got some RED footage of the central CO tornado today! This is great, but I hesitate to get too excited until I see the actual footage. I will post something when I can.

Phil

 

[Matt Gingery]

I think RED is a great idea. Maybe Sean Casey should consider switching from Imax to this. Film would have a much longer shelf life I am sure. Thanks for sharing this Phil. Something to keep in mind is that Artbeats has displayed there footage in many Hollywood films and is well respected. You have my full support on this site. Don't feel as if you opened a can of worms, because your opinion is accepted by many. Part of being an educated member of a site like this involves critical thinking and debate. Like I always say, smile and the world smiles with you, fart and you stand alone.