Are lack of DI's in intense tornadoes downgrading intense tornadoes?

[Jacob Punch]

I have been reading up on several tornado events in the last 10 years or so, (notably 5/9/16,4/14/12, and a few others I am forgetting at this point) and was wondering how many of the radar estimated wind speeds drastically effect the amount of violent tornadoes reported. This may skew the data, but wouldn't it provide a much more accurate description of the power of outbreaks? (i.e. April 14, 2012, as many tornadoes happened in the southern plains, however a few were likely capable of producing EF-4 damage, but were rated EF-2 and EF-3, and how the Salina/Langley, KS tornado was extremely violent.) IMO, I think that a lack of DI's is flawing the system of the Fujita scale, and, please correct me if I'm wrong, but even if the couplets are recorded from a higher beam (not actually what is occurring on the ground), we can find a way to determine, by how far away the beam is and how high off the ground it is scanning, the actual violence or intensity of the tornadoes via couplet. Any new scale or new way of rating tornadoes would likely have to be implemented and not affect the latter scale, due to it's difference, but I would think it would show that there are more strong-violent tornadoes than we may expect (noting that "violent" is recorded as EF-4-EF-5, although all tornadoes are rather "violent" compared to the surrounding atmosphere.)

 

[rdale]

We cannot measure the ground speeds based on aloft speeds. Approximate - but not measure. There are FAR more DIs now than 50 years ago, so the system is not perfect - but this isn't a flaw to worry over

 

[Jacob Punch]

We cannot measure the ground speeds based on aloft speeds. Approximate - but not measure. There are FAR more DIs now than 50 years ago, so the system is not perfect - but this isn't a flaw to worry over

I guess it's true, but I'm certain there must be a way on judging how powerful a tornado is based on the couplet strength. Something I'm going to look into, although not too important, something I myself will try to uncover . (Also, the lack of damage indicators is not that there isn't something that the damage can be assessed, I'm meaning a tornado which, say, doesn't hit anything and hits a fence at EF-2 strength in the middle of Kansas, if you understand what I mean.)

 

[Jeff Duda]

I guess it's true, but I'm certain there must be a way on judging how powerful a tornado is based on the couplet strength. Something I'm going to look into, although not too important, something I myself will try to uncover . (Also, the lack of damage indicators is not that there isn't something that the damage can be assessed, I'm meaning a tornado which, say, doesn't hit anything and hits a fence at EF-2 strength in the middle of Kansas, if you understand what I mean.)

I'd strongly reccomend looking through the Electronic Journal of Severe Storms Monthly, American Meteorological Society journals, and recorded presentations from prior meetings of the Radar Conference and Severe Local Storms Conferences, both hosted by the AMS (search here: https://ams.confex.com/ams/ams/archives.cgi) for papers on this topic, as I'm pretty sure there is existing published research on the topic, especially from Josh Wurman. In a nutshell, I don't think there's any statistically significant correlation between WSR-88D/TDWR rotational velocity and near-ground wind speeds in tornadoes. When it comes down to it, tornado strength at the ground is a function of more than just the low-level mesocyclone strength, and winds can vary considerably in the lowest 30 or so meters compared to winds aloft.

Not trying to be a major Debbie Downer here, but I'm pretty sure you won't find what you're looking for. You can still learn a lot, though!

 

[Jacob Punch]

I'd strongly reccomend looking through the Electronic Journal of Severe Storms Monthly, American Meteorological Society journals, and recorded presentations from prior meetings of the Radar Conference and Severe Local Storms Conferences, both hosted by the AMS (search here: https://ams.confex.com/ams/ams/archives.cgi) for papers on this topic, as I'm pretty sure there is existing published research on the topic, especially from Josh Wurman. In a nutshell, I don't think there's any statistically significant correlation between WSR-88D/TDWR rotational velocity and near-ground wind speeds in tornadoes. When it comes down to it, tornado strength at the ground is a function of more than just the low-level mesocyclone strength, and winds can vary considerably in the lowest 30 or so meters compared to winds aloft.

Not trying to be a major Debbie Downer here, but I'm pretty sure you won't find what you're looking for. You can still learn a lot, though!

Cool, that helps very much, Jeff!

 

[Paul Knightley]

Jeff makes great points above. I believe some recent research suggests that the strongest winds, in at least some tornadoes, occurs very close to the ground, perhaps even below the level at which mobile Doppler radar can scan (i.e. the research Dopplers). Also, unless the tornado is very close indeed to the WSR-88D station, the size of the 'bins' is too large to capture the width of the tornado.