2011-05-24 El Reno OK EF-5

Good day all,

m12tor19.jpg


Above: The view from Highway 270 (3 miles south of Calumet), looking south, and roughly 2 miles north of I-40. Image is from video frame-grab and contrast adjusted from low-light issues. I came close to driving into this one had I not "heard it" too!
 
So my question is this: Conceptually, exactly what is the EF Scale these days?

Interesting question - and I think time for a mod to make this a new thread.

The "official" EF-scale training at WDTB says that the wind speed numbers can change with time to keep damage consistent based on new research. So the EF4 being 166-200mph today could theoretically be changed to 175-210mph tomorrow. Then what do you do with the tornado that was rated EF5 because DOW ground winds were 205mph?

On the other hand, the TTU report back from 2006 says "The technology of portable Doppler radar should also be a part of the EF Scale process, either as a direct measurement, when available, or as a means of validating the wind speeds estimated by the experts." So I guess that answers the question.

I do recall hearing something about the EF committee coming back alive for revisions maybe 6 months ago, but neither SPC nor WDTB's page has any mention of it. And a meeting without minutes never really happened, right ;) (PS if anyone from WDTB and SPC reads this, many of the links on your page, like the TTU report, are broken.)
 
From a wind engineering standpoint, the issue is how a volumetric radar velocity measurement relates to a conventional 3-sec gust. All structural design standards are based on a 3-sec gust at 10 m. Throw in as Jeff mentioned, the lack of information/understanding of the vertical wind profile in tornadoes and it is a multi-faceted problem. This highlights a research need to understand how radar measurements relate to conventional Eulerian wind measurements. The wind engineering community is finally starting to catch on to the idea of using mobile radar platforms not just for tornadoes but for thunderstorm outflow winds in general (e.g. the current TTU project thats in the field with the 2 Ka band radars and StickNet probes, may the first field study like this funded through the engineering directorate of NSF). I think we hoped that maybe a good opportunity to start working on this problem would present itself from V2. It also continues to support the need for coordinated datasets with these multiple assets. A general feeling I get from the engineering community is that they would prefer radar information used for validation or changes to the EF-Scale rather as a way to actually assign a rating operationally.

I like Jeff's idea of the "asterix" and provides an indication of uncertainty in the rating (and for comic relief, the steriod era of tornado ratings)

Also Rob, I think TTU has moved the location of the EF-scale report, they've been doing some badly needed web upgrades in the WISE center, albeit they are going very slow.

I had to throw in a plug for my TTU guys out in the field! :eek:)
 
The bold use of an extrapolation of radar data in a singular case to hypothetical structures below only further contaminates an already questionable if not flawed tornado database. This presents continuing problems concerning the damage scale as well as for climatological research.
---------
Bill Monfredo, Ph.D.
Univ. of Oklahoma
AGS - Norman
 
I'm not sure I follow... An F5 from the old days is comparable to an EF5 today unless I'm missing something?

Specifically referring to the open upper end on wind speeds. While I know that the intention is for then EF scale to say "in excess of X mph", putting a value like 205 mph+ makes the general public assume the winds were only 205, and therefore comparebly weaker to F scale rated tornadoes. Ive heard on-air TV folks make this mistake comparing 3 May to 27 April. Its not good to compare between the two scales, but we will all do it anyway. We in the community understand the difference, most people don't.
 
The bold use of an extrapolation of radar data in a singular case to hypothetical structures below only further contaminates an already questionable if not flawed tornado database. This presents continuing problems concerning the damage scale as well as for climatological research.
---------
Bill Monfredo, Ph.D.
Univ. of Oklahoma
AGS - Norman

I disagree. It's an actual quantifiable measurement with error bands, and to ignore it does an injustice to the process I think. For example, If a tornado hits no structure and has no discernible upper DI marker, but a measurement is available and quality controlled suggesting its rating should be much higher, it should be ignored and rated lower? This defeats the purpose of the EF scale doesn't it?

The database is already flawed due to assumptions from human judgement anyway...letting the data speak for itself makes all the sense in the world to me and allows more solid entries into it.
 
Specifically referring to the open upper end on wind speeds. While I know that the intention is for then EF scale to say "in excess of X mph", putting a value like 205 mph+ makes the general public assume the winds were only 205, and therefore comparebly weaker to F scale rated tornadoes. Ive heard on-air TV folks make this mistake comparing 3 May to 27 April. Its not good to compare between the two scales, but we will all do it anyway. We in the community understand the difference, most people don't.

I see what you're saying... But the public doesn't care. Ratings are important for very little outside of the research community other than a few days of news headlines.
 
I see what you're saying... But the public doesn't care. Ratings are important for very little outside of the research community other than a few days of news headlines.

I would tend to agree in general, but the wind speed part does gets a bit more attention.
 
The "official" EF-scale training at WDTB says that the wind speed numbers can change with time to keep damage consistent based on new research. So the EF4 being 166-200mph today could theoretically be changed to 175-210mph tomorrow. Then what do you do with the tornado that was rated EF5 because DOW ground winds were 205mph?
This underscores an issue that's been bothering me over the past week through all the hoopla surrounding the 24 May ratings.

To me, it seems ideal that we should rate tornadoes based upon a fundamental intrinsic physical attribute; namely, wind speed. Because this is not practical in this day and age, we have a host of alternatives. One option is to rate solely on the basis of damage. I had been led to believe until recently that this was the role of the EF scale. The disadvantage of this methodology is that the climatological dataset will not be at all consistent with respect to the intrinsic physical properties of tornadoes, unlike other comparable rating scales in the geosciences (Saffir-Simpson, Richter, etc.). The advantage, however, is that it *will* be consistent with respect to societal impacts of tornadoes -- along the lines of the NESIS scale developed by Kocin and Uccellinni for northeast U.S. snowstorms. Put simply, one could perform with credibility a study concerning the climatology of societally-impactful tornadoes using the database of EF ratings.

When you start to mix and match rating indicators (from the two broad categories of "damage" and "observed wind speed"), the database is not consistent with respect to much at all. I suppose using mobile radar data where available brings the dataset *slightly* closer to being accurate with respect to wind speed, but surely not any closer to being consistent in that regard. Clearly, this is not just a trivial, philosophical concern; in fact, the three primary supercells on 24 May are a microcosm of the issue. Based upon how their 88D signatures compared with El Reno, it's conceivable that the Chickasha and Goldsby tornadoes might well have earned EF-5 ratings on the basis of close-range mobile radar data, too, were it available. But because it isn't, they will go down in the record as being the "weaker" of the three tornadoes that day, despite the actual DI's being comparable for all three events. So it seems to me that the rating book for 24 May will be consistent neither with respect to damage nor wind speed.

I had been pondering this for a few days, but the point rdale just made regarding the possibility of wind speed estimates changing really hit the point home for me and motivated me to speak my mind. The fact that the wind speeds corresponding to each EF rating are explicitly stated to be flexible over time implies that it is, first and foremost, a damage scale. Therefore, I do view upgrading a rating strictly on the basis of remote sensing data to be a "contamination" of the dataset, in some sense.

To be clear, I am not specifically taking issue with NWS OUN, the QRT, or anyone involved in this conundrum. It so happens that there was non-DI damage (an oil rig, I believe) that secondarily helped to justify the upgrading of El Reno, so the concerns I laid out above are more hypothetical and apply to future events in which no physical damage whatsoever can be used in tandem with radar data.
 
I would tend to agree in general, but the wind speed part does gets a bit more attention.

It does for a few days, and maybe a bit longer for those directly impacted, but that's it. I dare you to give me any MPH numbers from any tornado you chased in 2008 off the top of your head.
 
When Ted created the scale that bears his name, it was actually a dual scale that allowed for both ratings by damage (F) and wind (f). Because there were no good ways to measure the maximum winds (like DOWs), the damage part became standard.

Personally, I think the EF scale is a bust which is why I usually refer back to Ted's original scale. The maximum wind speeds in the EF scale are misleadingly low as indicated, to cite one example, here: http://www2.ljworld.com/news/2011/jun/03/department-homeland-security-strengthen-national-b/
 
I've also come to realize some inconsistencies in the EF-scale lately. I try to think of the scale as a relationship between an independent variable (damage, primarily, although the wind speed part could also be considered) and a dependent variable (EF-scale rating). The problem I see is that the rating is based off an estimated wind speed which is based off of a DOD to a DI. Thus, when someone evaluates tornado damage, they obtain an independent variable (a DOD to a DI) and use basic piecewise defined functions (i.e., the wind speed estimates based on the DOD for a given DI) to get a wind speed estimate. THEN that wind speed estimate determines EF-scale rating. While I understand the curiosity with estimating horizontal wind speeds in tornadoes (let's not even go into the idea that vertical accelerations near ground level may also create damage), why use the estimate to get an EF-scale rating? Why not just bypass it and go straight to the rating? Because now you have two outputs from one input running side-by-side, but one of the outputs can change with time according to the latest and greatest in technological developments (i.e., the wind speed value associated with a given EF-scale rating). This seems overly complicated and is leading to what others are calling a contamination of the database of tornadoes.

I liked the EF-scale when I first heard of it. However, it seems to me that the scale has caused just as many new problems as it has solved old problems. Allowing radar wind speed estimates to affect the tornado rating is simply not consistent with what I thought the EF-scale was supposed to be. I could be wrong, but if I am I would really like someone to explain it. Some previous posts have begun that explanation, but again, it just seems too convenient to me. It's like the EF-scale should use this rule: "we'll use whatever measurements or estimates we have to determine an EF-scale rating, whether they're based on damage, in-situ observed wind, or remotely sensed observed wind."
 
I think most meteorologists use the EF-scale primarily to obtain an estimate of the intensity of a tornado. For most of us, we don't really use the EF-scale to assess the engineering ramifications of tornadoes -- we look at tornado ratings to get a feeling for the intensity of a tornado. Well should all know that one of the main problems with the EF-scale is that, 99.9% of the time, any assessment is based on damage (e.g. the DoDs for the DIs), which is problematic when a tornado does not hit any significant DIs (or completely destroys those that it does hit). These ratings are then used in climatology and correlation studies to examine meteorological characteristics that may help discriminate between environments that support high-end (and often high-impact) tornadoes from those that do not. There have been some very good publications from SPC mets focused on just this; we use 0-1 km SRH, LCL height, Significant Tornado Parameter, and other parameters because they've shown utility in the past in determining when certain environments may support high-end tornado risks.

As noted previously, the problem with lack of DIs for some tornadoes can be problematic. If a tornado with 250 mph winds at 10 m AGL spins in a field and hits absolutely nothing, there's a good chance that the tornado will be underrated in the eyes of most mets (again, I think many of us work on the premise that the EF scale is proxy for intensity ). This, in turn, certainly can cause issues with correlation studies (e.g. "look, this tornado occurred in an environment of 5000 j/kg MLCAPE and 400 m2/s2 0-1km SRH, yet it was only an EF1"). If we have high-quality measurements near the surface that are convincing, then I see little reason why those data cannot be used with non-traditional indicators to augment a rating. In the case of the El Reno tornado, there was a direct surface observation within the tornado. If that tornado hadn't hit anything in the way of high-end DIs, then should that surface ob be ignored? Ideally, the EF-scale may be based on damage, but isn't the practical use of it to use damage as a proxy for intensity? If so, then any data that can be corroborated with other, non-traditional indications should be included, IMO. Heck, even without ANY quantitative measurements, there can be a considerable amount of subjectivity in the ratings. For example, some of the homes that were "slabbed" were deemed to have substandard construction. However, the result is that one can only establish a lower bound to the winds (they were at least 1xx). In addition, the majority of the the winds associated with the different DoDs for each DI are subjective, based largely on the consensus of a group of wind damage and engineering experts. The original EF-scale document lists, if I recall correctly, the range of the wind speed estimates given by the different people involved in the development of the EF-scale for each DoD and DI, and you can see that some DoDs for some DIs have a very significant range.

In this case, the winds we sampled were not 205 mph. The winds measured (~65 m AGL) were well over the lower EF5 boundary. Even a very conservative estimate yielded a sfc-estimated wind above 200 mph, with the peak radial velocity, again, very much in excess of that speed. I'd agree with being more skeptical in the use of radar data if the data were farther above ground level or much nearer the EF4/EF5 threshold, though.

EDIT: This is entirely my personal opinion and does not represent the feelings of the group with which I work.
 
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I am curious, were you guys the only ones sampling the storm with mobile radar? Also, the last time I was at OU ('07) Dr. Biggerstaff was building the dual polar, X-band (I think? or perhaps it was C-band) mobile radar. What type of radar was Howie's team using?
I don't have many specifics, but I do know that one of the SMART-R radars, SR-1 which is not dual-pol, was sampling the El Reno supercell from a position north of the storm. SR-2 which does have dual-pol capabilities did not collect data on May 24th thanks to technical problems.

Here are a couple archived radar images that I have from when the tornado was crossing I-40. I believe this is relatively close to the time when the oil rig was destroyed as well as when cars were thrown nine hundred yards.

http://i52.tinypic.com/33o1e84.jpg (reflectivity)
http://i51.tinypic.com/5x4n5t.jpg (SRV)

Here is a hodograph from the 21Z Purcell, OK profiler as well.
 
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