When is a funnel a funnel to you?

[Jim Saueressig]

In light of an abundance of funnel reports yesterday and having at many times seen a cloud called a funnel that I would never called a funnel I have to wonder when a funnel becomes a funnel for you?

I would be curious of your personal definition of a funnel and at what point you would report it as such.

My most pressing question is how fast must it be rotating to quality as a funnel for you personally or even by definition?

Yesterday I seen a few examples that left me with questions. This was SW of Hartford. (Wide angle shot so was much closer than it appears):



Cropped: This had good rotation while it rolled around the back of the circulation but was not long lived, I did not report.



Then as that faded out this formed rapidly that had a little rotation but I didn't even consider it a funnel at the time but looking at Micheal's video from yesterday realized even something that raggedy in structure could produce (Wide angle shot so was much closer than it appears):



Cropped:



These were prior to Princeton, fair rotation but again short lived:





This was short lived as well, it was more under the new updraft than the main updraft of the Waverly cell so I didn't report.



I seen numerous little rope or thread funnels spin up that were gone in a few seconds as well yesterday. Then on the way East playing catch up I noticed a funnel down the side of this cloud that by the time I grabbed the camera and shot it had shortened by half and dissipated seconds later. Is this a mid level funnel or simply a shear funnel?




Now I am sure some of you may think these are dumb questions but maybe it would help some people eliminate false reports or give someone new ideas based on some pics. In each of the pictures above what if anything would you have reported?

 

[Jeff Duda]

If it's an appendage prodtruding from the right area on a supercell and it's rotating noticeably, then it's a funnel to me. If you're close to it but you have to really strain your eyes to find rotation, then it probably isn't a funnel. If the rotation was as great as you say it was, then I say all of your pictures show funnel clouds, although I'd also like to see a solid connection of the condensation cloud to the base. The third and fourth images look raggedy with little connection between the "funnel" and the base.

On that note, what is up with non-rotating wall clouds? What are those? I mean, I know what they technically mean, but why call them that? If a mass of cloud is hanging below the updraft of a storm, I just call it a "lowering." If it were to start rotating, then I would call it a wall cloud. I guess the naming "non-rotating wall cloud" just confuses me, except for in the cases of the most distinct hanging clouds.

 

[Jim Saueressig]

Jeff, The updrafts of these cells had some great rotation and motion at times. As far as pics three and four I agree there is little that would make me think funnel but I have seen similar with slight rotation called a funnel... I guess I need a much more defined funnel for my peace of mind and for it to persist a bit.

 

[Jason Boggs]

When I see it rotating and not in contact with the ground. This is as simple as I can put it.

 

[Jim Saueressig]

When I see it rotating and not in contact with the ground. This is as simple as I can put it.

That's your definition of a funnel but do you call it in as a funnel at each occasion you see that or do you have another point at which you might call it in?

I called none in yesterday myself and rarely do anymore if at all. I figure if it is already warned there is no need and if not it is going to have to be textbook or persistent to call it.

 

[Jason Foster]

When I see it rotating and not in contact with the ground. This is as simple as I can put it.

That's the same for me, outside of that it's words that I picked up from Amos M. = "Appendage" or "conical"

 

[Rick Schmidt]

I have seen funnels that were rotating, but did not look like funnels, and I have seen funnel look-alikes that were not rotating. To identify a funnel properly, I think it is more important to recognize tight rotation, rather than how fast it is rotating.---Rick

 

[Jim Saueressig]

I have seen funnels that were rotating, but did not look like funnels, and I have seen funnel look-alikes that were not rotating. To identify a funnel properly, I think it is more important to recognize tight rotation, rather than how fast it is rotating.---Rick

And that might be the best way to word what I think I look for in a funnel cloud definition for myself. Lyon County back in 2003 had a tornado warning issued for this "funnel cloud" I was rather surprised as this was not what I would have even considered a legitimate funnel.

 

[Paul Knightley]

I'm of the opinion that if people have to start asking whether it's a funnel or not, it probably isn't!

 

[Wes Carter]

I too have had difficulty determining what should be called a funnel and came up with something that I thought was reasonably safe. If I see existing scud rotating then I just watch to see what happens. I don't call it a funnel at all. But if the rotation tightens up and causes scud to start forming and rapidly rotating into the cloud base I'll call it a funnel. I know it's arbitrary but it's the best I've got.

 

[Jason McKittrick]

I would agree with Jason Boggs on this one. However after watching video of my chases after the fact and calling out funnel like I was in a Reed Timmer video I have removed the word from my vocabulary. It is easy to get excited in the heat of the chase and start seeing things that just are not rotating and calling them funnels. I have done quite well at reserving judgment on suspicious lowerings until after the fact. The truth is I have never seen a funnel that did not become a tornado within a minute or so of seeing it.

 

[Jim Saueressig]

I'm of the opinion that if people have to start asking whether it's a funnel or not, it probably isn't!

But that is not working for people who are assuming they are seeing one and overwhelming some local LEA's during weather with scud or even basic clouds.

It's also a curiosity question of when is a funnel worth consideration or reporting to others. I am not an LEO so I don't have to take the responsibility of making sure my public is safe and err on the side of "better safe than sorry" and report questionable rotations and such.

The truth is I have never seen a funnel that did not become a tornado within a minute or so of seeing it.

That would be an odd occurrence.... You must be anti funnel orientated.. LOL

I have seen plenty that were definite funnels but at the time didn't (feel) seem to me that it would become anything of consequence.

This thread was a question of what others considered a funnel and when you would report it because I myself often ignore anything not already in high gear and I suppose that is on one side of the extremes while I see others calling something a funnel that might well be one by its definition but is unlikely to ever amount to anything and seems to me to be on the other side of the extremes.

I thought it would be good to get a thread out there that would help inform people a little better about what should or should not be reported but I suppose video would be the best training tool for funnels and seeing rotation and I am currently still a "still" man.

 

[Mike Hollingshead]

The truth is I have never seen a funnel that did not become a tornado within a minute or so of seeing it.

Almost ditto on that. Yesterday was a rare time I saw a funnel not become a tornado, the long white ropey deal...which was obviously very legitly a funnel...helical vortice off it and all.

I'd call questionable things "loosely rotating lowerings". They are more that than funnels to me.

The thing with yesterday and other similar days is, I think when you have such extreme saturation, you're going to see things you would never see happening on more normal moisture days(even though they still are happening). Get a storm over a hill and you were probably seeing lifting scud funnels yesterday, I saw some. If they happen to be under a nice very occluded area, with a general bowl type appearance above them, then I can see calling similar features funnels at times. The "pokie down" things from pathetic structure that sort of looks funnel shaped, eh, I'd call it a funnel shaped lowering...or just a lowering.

 

[Jim Saueressig]

I'd call questionable things "loosely rotating lowerings". They are more that than funnels to me.

That would be a good term to use for quite a few so called funnel videos I have seen in the past.