Unsafe Tactic?

[Danny Neal]

I was looking up the infamous 60% TOR day on SPC and thought I may try to find some video from this day on youtube. In doing so I found a particular clip where it appears a police officer blocked traffic that looked to be very near if not IN the path of this oncoming tornado.

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Now I don't mean to criticize, but I would just want to know the reasoning behind this...... Were they expecting the tornado to cross the road they were on further to the West? The tornado would have appeared by the naked eye to probably pass to the (north/top of screen) of the road this was filmed on but still. Just opening up a can of worms on the thought process behind this, and if you see anything wrong with this or if you would do anything different.

 

[Shane Adams]

Probably a case like the one we dealt with on April 21, 2007 on the north side of Dumas, TX. The local authorities think they're doing the right thing by keeping traffic away from the dangers that are ahead, but in doing so, forget about what's still coming. In our particular situation, they had completely blocked US287 (which is a major 4-lane) because of tornado damage in Cactus, a town north of Dumas. While sitting there stuck, we saw the next supercell in the line, tornado warned, coming right at Dumas.

The first guy we tried to talk to was a jerk, and wouldn't even let us get a word in before raising his voice and getting all assy. However, a more even-tempered guy came over and after seeing our radar, simply replied "we've already got spotters down there." UGH.

So then we tried to cordially but firmly explain that they were creating a huge pile of traffic that was sitting right in the storm's path, and whether spotters were down there or not wasn't gonna change the fact they were gonna have trouble in about twenty minutes when it got there. Through a bit of pleading and salesmanship, we finally got the guy thinking about it enough to let us through the roadblock so we could turn around about a quarter mile ahead where there was a turn lane. He asked us what he should do, and we told him "let everyone who's from here turn back and go to their homes to take shelter, you have about twenty minutes."

He told us it would be his job if his superior knew he let us through a roadblock, and begged us not to keep going if he let us through. We promised, and then honored our word by turning around and heading back to Dumas. About five miles south of town, we intercepted a small tornado. It wasn't a disaster after all, but it could've been with a strong, long-track tornado.

 

[Danny Neal]

I've seen this happen on one-lane road construction (Mike H's experience near Hill City) but to have a clearly visible tornado that is moving closer to the road block and STILL have them jammed there is a bit of a head scratcher. (woah long sentence) In Shane's case they had 20 minutes or so to evacuate, in this case they had 2-3 minutes. Of course it must have been a non-incident since this is the first time THIS particular incident has been brought up.

Can anyone else think of a time where the cops shut down traffic in the PATH of the storm? I know OHP shuts down the turnpike, but I highly doubt they do so when they are directly in the path of a visible tornado.......

Better yet....would YOU sit there in a road block in this situation? I know I wouldn't. I am not going to have some cop control whether I live or die.

 

[Chris Kennedy]

If anything the officer should have been turning people around.

 

[Dustin Wilcox]

We had an officer on the 23rd of 08, block the West bound lanes of the Interstate East of Quinter, as the 2nd Wedge tornado moved South to North towards the interstate; while his endeavors prevented us from getting a good intercept on the 2nd wedge, he was certainly protecting a lot of folks who other wise would have likely continued West bound directly into the tornado's path. He had traffic held up approximately 3-5 miles East of where it appeared the tornado would cross the interstate. I'd say he was doing everyone (except us) a favor...

 

[cedwards]

During the Quinter tornado, a fire truck blocked a wide turn around on I-70. I was not worried about the tornado at the time, but I was worried about baseball size hail clobbering us. This was the only place to turn around with the core coming our way. The firemen refused to move the engine to let people get out of there. Luckily, we dodged the large hail anyway.

 

[Rob Wadsworth]

Yeah, that Quinter wedge also killed one person that drove on I-70. I remember a frightened teenage boy telling someone about it at the crowded 24-7 Stop in WaKeeney. Poor kid was pretty upset and explained how he saw a little import car off of the side of the road that had blood covering all of the inside windows. Would have shook me up - too.

As far as the police keeping people from getting in the area of the tornado, they are supposed to be there to protect the public. But as it often goes, tornadoes change direction slightly, or pull up all together. As it turned out, you are right, Danny. I guess they thought they were doing the best they could as the circumstances presented itself. Some of the Nebraska and Iowa State Troopers I've talked to and worked with really don't know a whole lot about storms. They appreciate spotters and chasers for that reason, as they often look for guidance and tips to do their job better. I was not a little surprised when I asked them about it, and they said that isn't a subject that gets a lot of exposure/training for. One would think that living and working these areas would dictate at least a mediocre level of the dangers and sign of severe storms and tornadoes. What can you do?

 

[Chris Foltz]

Yeah, that Quinter wedge also killed one person that drove on I-70.

That's not correct. There were no fatalities from the Quinter tornado. There was a vehicle hit by the tornado and the gentleman inside the vehicle sustained various injuries but he survived. Several members of this board were first on the scene and gave aid and comfort to the gentleman until emergency personnel arrived. Just wanted to clarify that point.

 

[Rob Herman]

Randy Applegate was the unfortunate gentleman who tangled with that twister.

He made a Power Point about his experience.

It can be found here: randy.applegate.home.att.net/Randy_and_the_Kansas_Twister.ppt

 

[John Wetter]

I can't really blame PD's or FD's for trying to block roads to keep people away... As has already been mentioned, people are more than oblivious and will drive straight in to wedges. The officers are trying to protect people as it's their job. They can't know that your a chaser and even if they could, do they know that you actually know what you're doing? If I put myself in their shoes I'd probably do the same thing.

 

[cedwards]

In the case of the FD. They were just there spotting. They had blocked the ESCAPE rout, but refused to move over just a bit to let vehicles by. They claimed that they were too busy spotting to take the time to move the vehicle. If they wanted to block traffic and protect people from driving into the tornado, they could have easily done that. That isn't what they were there for.

 

[Shane Adams]

I'm not talking about being kept from the chase (thinking as a chaser). I'm talking about a situation where it's obvious people are in trouble by being held at a road block, when more danger is on the way. It doesn't matter if they're a police officer, fireman, spotter, chaser, or trained monkey...when the evidence is right in front of you (radar), there's no excuse not to let people through.

I understand the whole "they're just doing their job" angle, but when someone shows them absolute proof there's a real possibility of danger if they keep traffic jammed up, there should be no hesitation...especially since the stock reply is always "we're trying to do our job and keep people safe." In some instances, what it comes down to is them not wanting to hear advice from an outside source; it's their territory and they have it covered.

The fact we're chasers and naturally yes, we want to be able to continue on and chase is beside the point: when trouble's coming, it's coming, and people need to be allowed to escape. That it benefits us also as chasers is just a convenient coincidence.

The above comments are only regarding situations like the ones described in this thread; I am by no means trying to debunk the hard work of local authorities during severe weather events, because most of the time, they're doing the right thing (even when it keeps us from continuing the chase and we cuss them for it).

 

[Matthew Harding]

I do think that the LEO was right in blocking off part of the road, even if the tornado never made it to his particular roadblock. I think he might have been covering his backside in case the area was to sustain a direct hit, he would keep on lookers from showing up to gawk yet still leave enough room for other emergency apparatus to come in if needed.
I remember sometime back (date escapes me) but a Kansas State Trooper blocked off traffic in one of the lanes of the Kansas Turnpike near the LeCompton Interchange in order to keep people from driving into the tornado. That trooper saved lives on that day.

 

[Dick McGowan]

During the Quinter tornado, a fire truck blocked a wide turn around on I-70. I was not worried about the tornado at the time, but I was worried about baseball size hail clobbering us. This was the only place to turn around with the core coming our way. The firemen refused to move the engine to let people get out of there. Luckily, we dodged the large hail anyway.

Which exit was it? Or was it in the median? We couldn't turn around till almost 5 miles west. Out of nowhere, not a single drop of rain (or any hail), a baseball-sized stone shattered my window without warning and scared the crap out of me. It was aimed right for my head, there was not a single stone for 2 more minutes after that even..then baseballs were hitting the pavement periodically after we finally got turned around. I have video (I think) of your tour vans driving by as the second tornado formed (as Quinter #1 dissipated) on the west side of Quinter...you were driving west. Was it near there?

 

[Danny Neal]

I don't think anyone here thinks that blocking off roads well ahead of the tornado or an area that has been directly affected by the tornado is wrong or a bad idea. Especially after the fact, there is already going to be mass chaos with the people affected, we don't need anymore from gawkers or sightseers. It is extremely difficult to pin down the exact path of a tornado, so the police shut down main roads that they (dispatch - spotters - actual NWS text) feel will be affected.

I have no problem with prevention of a disaster, I.E blindly driving into a wedge on an interstate with limited shelter or exits. What happens when (in Shanes case) someone IS there that has knowledge of the situation and despite pleas to be let through (or at least turned around) the person in charge doesn't change his stance? I mean what would you do? Would you continue to sit there and hope they let you through/turn you around?

In the case of the video that I posted, how could you justify holding up traffic to the point where you have 40-50 cars in the area of danger? If you start the video and then fast forward it to near the end you can obviously tell the tornado is getting closer.

When does the "I am just following SOP's (standard operating procedures) turn into..... "Wow, we need to get out of here!" Most motorists can probably tell you if they were a motorist that was trapped in a road block with a visible tornado heading near the area..... they probably wouldn't be too happy and it may lead to further problems.

As I said before I think it is a good idea to set up road blocks in certain situations, because face it how many people with no knowledge of weather actually care about it and recognize the conditions outside their own car? I don't believe they were wrong in this situation to shut off the road, but at what point do you say "Okay this is getting close......." ?????

I still pose this question...... If you were in the situation of the video..... (Chaser, Average Joe, Police Officer, etc) How would you handle it?


**** I guess it isn't a big deal since it was a non-event, however, part of my job is prevention (fire), and I still love to think of ways and solutions to other problems and situations I may find myself in ****