Taking Shelter in a Ditch

[Bob Hartig]

A few months back there was a thread in which members discussed, among other things, the folly of taking cover in a ditch from an approaching tornado. The consensus was that no one on Storm Track would ever want to resort to a ditch except under the most dire, er, "last ditch" circumstances. People gave some excellent reasons why hiding in a ditch was a rotten option, among them being flash flooding, snakes and other nasty critters, downed electrical wires, and debris blowing into the ditch.

After recently hearing a local NWS forecaster recommend sheltering in a ditch, though, I got to thinking. Seems to me that the people who leaned in on the topic were mainly Tornado Alley chasers who think in terms of the Great Plains landscape. But in other parts of the country, at least some of the above objections aren't as much of a concern. In the Illinois or Indiana flatlands, for instance, you can feel pretty confident that the ditches are going to be free of copperheads, rattlesnakes, and scorpions. Flash flooding, too, while a possibility, probably isn't as likely to pose the same concern in areas where the soil readily absorbs water as in areas such as west Kansas where clay is the dominant soil type.

My point is, maybe hiding in a ditch makes better sense in some parts of the country than others. Obviously, the best option will always be to get out of harm's way. But at least in the Great Lakes region, the hazards of sheltering in a ditch are probably somewhat less than in the Plains states.

Just thought I'd toss this topic out there as food for thought.

 

[John Farley]

As I believe I mentioned in the other thread, I interviewed several Warning Coordination Meteorologists a couple years ago as part of a research project on this topic. A number of them agreed that the advisability of getting in a ditch versus driving out of the path of the tornado varied regionally, depending on factors such as whether the land was flat and open with good visibility or wooded and/or hilly, and also the relative frequency of storm structures that offer relatively good visibility (e.g. LP and many classic supercells) versus poor visibility (e.g. HP supercells and MCS's). In good visibility situations where the tornado can be easily seen, driving out of the path is often an option, as nearly all chasers know. In poorer visibility situations, this option is probably less viable, so other actions may be better.

Where the problem comes in is that the National Weather Service (NWS) has one "official" recommendation, which is if sturdy shelter is not available, get in a ditch. Several of the meteorologists I talked to felt that, since the best thing to do may be somewhat region-specific, NWS offices should have discretion to give the advice that is best for their region. In general, I agree with this. However, I would also like to see some research showing any situation in which getting in the ditch is actually better - there really is not much research on this at all, but what little there is suggests that outdoor locations are typically associated with poorer outcomes than buildings or vehicles.

 

[Adam Lucio]

While the regional aspect of this debate makes sense Im not sure it would be too practical when it comes to execution.

If the NWS in IL tells people one thing and the NWS in KS tells another, what happens when a person from IL gets caught in a situation in KS? People dont follow what their told to do in their home states, and I suspect they wont take the time to know what to do in all different regions of the country.

Plus the way information flows these days it will just get messy with so many different options. I think the NWS has tried to pick the best all around solution. Being caught in a tornado is a bad situation no matter what. If you stand a 50% of dying in your car, a 51% chance dying in an open field or parking lot, a 52% of dying in an underpass...and a 49% chance of dying in a ditch...people want the best chance...even though no matter what its still a bad situation.

They have their research to back up their numbers, I think if one option proved better they would switch it all around.

 

[Paul Hadfield]

Take a look at the third video located lower left in the following link. This just came out today, i'm sure some of you would have a completely different answer

http://www.wandtv.com/global/story.asp?s=10228533

 

[J Holder]

Laying low in ditch is probably a little safer than doing what Mel Gibson did in that big battle scene in Brave heart (where they lifted their kilts to the enemy in defiance), but it's definitely a last resort measure.

I was in Andover in 1991 the day after the big one rolled through town and the Golden Spur. The ditches were full of debris, much of it embedded 6-24" into the soil, depending on where and the item.

 

[Dennis Sherrod]

This photo from an EF2 this past weekend in Alabama makes me have to double think the "Heading for the Ditch" routine. While this picture may be an exception and not the norm, it still clearly shows a ditch full of debris that most likely would have killed or seriously hurt someone.
I guess each person has to weigh their options on the best method to use.

 

[Keith Mullen]

I was curious if the old "get in a ditch" was still the first standby.

Here is the weather safety tip as stated by the NWS on Tornado Safety:

2009

Where to go when a tornado warning has been issued for your area:

1. Indoors:

a. Go to a pre-designated shelter area such as a safe room, basement, storm
cellar, or the lowest building level. If there is no basement, go to the center of an interior room on the lowest level (closet, interior hallway) away from
corners, windows, doors, and outside walls. Put as many walls as possible
between you and the outside. Get under a sturdy table and use your arms to
protect your head and neck. Do not open windows.

2. In a vehicle:

a. Your 1st option might be driving away from the danger. Notice the direction
of movement of the tornado and drive at a right angle to a shelter. Remember
to drive at a right angle, never try to outrun the tornado.

b. Otherwise, get out of your vehicle and lie flat in a nearby ditch or depression and cover your head with your hands. Be aware of the potential for flooding.

c. Do NOT get under an overpass or bridge. You are safer in a low, flat location.

d. At night, the tornado may be nearly impossible to see. Err on the side of
caution and get out of your vehicle and into a sturdy shelter or nearby ditch.

3. In a trailer or mobile home:

a. Get out immediately and go to the lowest floor of a sturdy, nearby building or a storm shelter. Mobile homes, even if tied down, offer little protection from
tornadoes.

If all else fails remember the word DUCK:
Down to the lowest level
Under something sturdy
Cover your head
Keep in shelter until the storm passes

 

[Shane Adams]

My opposition to hiding in a ditch has nothing to do with anything other than the fact you're hiding in a ditch. What possible shelter is being a few feet below the rest of the ground in the area going to provide? If a tornado can uproot a sizable tree, how tough would it be for one to suck a person (who's not attached to the ground) out of a ditch?

For my life, I'd rather get clobbered by debris while making a run for it than get wiped away just lying there waiting to die.

 

[Scott Weberpal]

My opposition to hiding in a ditch has nothing to do with anything other than the fact you're hiding in a ditch. What possible shelter is being a few feet below the rest of the ground in the area going to provide? If a tornado can uproot a sizable tree, how tough would it be for one to suck a person (who's not attached to the ground) out of a ditch?

For my life, I'd rather get clobbered by debris while making a run for it than get wiped away just lying there waiting to die.

A tornado pulls a tree out of the ground because the soil is weaker than the breaking point of the tree and the tree itself provides a large surface area for the wind force to put pressure on. If you are laying flat in a ditch with a decent depression, you have much less of a chance of getting sucked out than laying or standing on a flat surface. If the wind can't get under you, there's a fairly good chance it's not going to pull you out unless it's a fairly significant tornado.

 

[Jason Harris]

Video from today relates. . . .

Did everybody catch this reporter's footage of the sheet metal twirling up in the air in near the highway today? Some discussion of how the reporters headed for the ditch here:
http://www.kmbc.com/video/19292059/index.html

**but the main ditch-action video is this one:
http://www.kmbc.com/video/19292150/index.html

 

[John Farley]

Did everybody catch this reporter's footage of the sheet metal twirling up in the air in near the highway today? Some discussion of how the reporters headed for the ditch here:
http://www.kmbc.com/video/19292059/index.html

**but the main ditch-action video is this one:
http://www.kmbc.com/video/19292150/index.html

Two points regarding this: First, they did not take a hit from the tornado. Both videos mention it passing north of them. Second, they are lucky one of those pieces of sheet metal did not fall on them while they were in the ditch. I think a car would pretty clearly offer more protection from those than you would have lying in a ditch.

Also, in reference to Keith's post - Keith, do you have a URL or other source for that? 2-a is a little different from what the NWS has generally saying, and IMHO is more consistent with what the research says - so if that is now the official advice, that is an improvement.

 

[Keith Mullen]

ARRGH!

Now you're going to make me have to hunt back through their severe weather preparedness week materials?

LOL. I can try to hunt it down again - I know that it was for the preparedness, and I remember it was KS NWS materials.

I'll restart the quest - if you find it first, let me know so I can call off the hunt!

 

[Paul Hadfield]

Two points regarding this: First, they did not take a hit from the tornado. Both videos mention it passing north of them. Second, they are lucky one of those pieces of sheet metal did not fall on them while they were in the ditch. I think a car would pretty clearly offer more protection from those than you would have lying in a ditch.

Also, in reference to Keith's post - Keith, do you have a URL or other source for that? 2-a is a little different from what the NWS has generally saying, and IMHO is more consistent with what the research says - so if that is now the official advice, that is an improvement.

Notice how the driver kept his head about direction of movement and repositioning the vehicle ahead of the storm? Makes sense because if the tornado is due N and is likely traveling in a NE fashion, then to move ahead E by even just a few yards put them at a greater distance which it appears did. Really is no telling if following protocol and getting out was wise but were something to go awry and the vehicle got caught in the exterior winds it could've ended up like that one vehicle in the beginning of that infamous underpass video? Something else I noticed was that there was a N facing tree line at the ditch making me wonder if those trees could've been pulled over and ultimately crushed those victims. So many what if's as is always the case, there really is no "wrong" of this particular situation but the biggest lesson as demonstrated by the driver is to "stay cool".

 

[Brian Mette]

I don't know if this has already been mentioned, but I was just watching the weather channel and they mentioned that the red cross announced that they no longer recommend getting into a ditch. Now they say just stay in the car, and try to drive out of the tornado's path.