• After witnessing the continued decrease of involvement in the SpotterNetwork staff in serving SN members with troubleshooting issues recently, I have unilaterally decided to terminate the relationship between SpotterNetwork's support and Stormtrack. I have witnessed multiple users unable to receive support weeks after initiating help threads on the forum. I find this lack of response from SpotterNetwork officials disappointing and a failure to hold up their end of the agreement that was made years ago, before I took over management of this site. In my opinion, having Stormtrack users sit and wait for so long to receive help on SpotterNetwork issues on the Stormtrack forums reflects poorly not only on SpotterNetwork, but on Stormtrack and (by association) me as well. Since the issue has not been satisfactorily addressed, I no longer wish for the Stormtrack forum to be associated with SpotterNetwork.

    I apologize to those who continue to have issues with the service and continue to see their issues left unaddressed. Please understand that the connection between ST and SN was put in place long before I had any say over it. But now that I am the "captain of this ship," it is within my right (nay, duty) to make adjustments as I see necessary. Ending this relationship is such an adjustment.

    For those who continue to need help, I recommend navigating a web browswer to SpotterNetwork's About page, and seeking the individuals listed on that page for all further inquiries about SpotterNetwork.

    From this moment forward, the SpotterNetwork sub-forum has been hidden/deleted and there will be no assurance that any SpotterNetwork issues brought up in any of Stormtrack's other sub-forums will be addressed. Do not rely on Stormtrack for help with SpotterNetwork issues.

    Sincerely, Jeff D.

Man-Made Tornadoes Powering the Future

Van DeWald

Van DeWald

EF2
Joined
Sep 25, 2006
Messages
181
Location
Omaha, NE
Not sure if anyone has heard about this, but a canadian researcher is trying to build a tornado machine to harness the power inside the vortex.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25374237/

Sounds like a novel concept. So instead of wind farms popping up across the countryside, we'll see AVE (atmospheric vortex engine) complexes instead. He estimates he could build a 200 megawatt machine for about 60 million, supposedly cheaper than other alternative energy sources.

Project homepage:
http://vortexengine.ca/index.shtml
 
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Oy, the article is making my head hurt... Just a few gems:

Tornadoes and hurricanes form when sun-heated air near the surface rises and displaces cooler air above. As outside air rushes in to replace the rising air, the whole mass begins to rotate.
Click to expand...
Sweet -- the Coriolis force is directly involved in the development of tornadoes. Oh yeah, and convective instability causes tornadoes? Interesting...

The AVE structure is a 200-meter-wide arena with 100-meter-high walls. Warm humid air enters at the sides, directed to flow in a circular fashion. As the air whirls around at speeds up to 200 mph, a vacuum forms in the center, which holds the vortex together as it extends several miles into the sky.
Click to expand...
A vacuum forms at the center of the vortex? I suppose a very imperfect vacuum, but that's a stretch. What about just calling it a "pressure deficit" -- no need to explain the non-linear term of the perturbation pressure equation, but something that's more accurate than "a vacuum".

The AVE could generate energy from this waste heat because it connects the ground to the upper atmosphere where the temperature gets as low as negative 60 degrees Celsius (80 degrees below zero Fahrenheit). This cold reservoir draws the warm air up fast enough to turn turbines.
Click to expand...
It talks about how the structure is 100m tall, then it talks about how it's going to connect "to the upper atmosphere" where it's -60 C?

Enough about the article, I suppose...

I'm not 100% clear how this works. He adds vorticity and convergence to a source of hot air (such as that from a power plant). This then forms a vortex from which he is able to extract a lot of energy? Vortices have some inherent stability, and, with, established vertical perturbation pressure gradients, you may be able to extract some energy from them. However, I just cannot believe that it'll be as much as 40% of the total output of the any given power plant. You'll still have to deal with turbulence, viscocity, very weak lapse rates, and other forces that would tend to provide a non-ideal situation for developing such vorticies... It sounds like he's taking the dust devil (which are driven largely by dry convection associated with extreme lapse rates near the ground) and trying to extract vast amounts of energy from it (in this case, instead of a hot surface/ground driving the convection, he's using heated air from a power plant, etc). Perhaps the math works out correctly, but it seems to me that the amount of energy that could be extracted is perhaps a little overstated.

In the end, it seems that this is about increasing the efficiency of power plants by trying to extract energy (in the form of heat) that is otherwise wasted (i.e. released into the atmosphere). This is a noble (and necessary, IMO) goal to strive for, but I have to think there are better ways to use the "wasted" heat than this one provides. But, I'll happily accept being wrong if it works!
 
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To me this sounds like a pubilicity stunt and not a very good one. Seriouly the shear size of the equipment to get a tornado to develope would require more power than it probably could produce. I rather see $60M poured into lightning capturing and power conversion technologies.

Or better year lets get about 100 million declawed furry cats, about 200 million mice and a trillion ballons, shove them all in a arizona sized dry room and enjoy the free power!
 
My question is, if the winds generated by this mechanism can reach 200mph, what's he going to "put" it in? Those type winds would destroy whatever building they were generated in...wouldn't they?
 
Shane, it seems to be a gi-normous tornado machine, thus a controlled environment, engineered to maintain a stable vortex. In theory, the tube should remain "inside" the center of the structure, anchored to the base. So, in theory, those 200 mph winds should never touch the sidewalls, only the floor.
 
Jeff Snyder said:
Oy, the article is making my head hurt... Just a few gems:

Sweet -- the Coriolis force is directly involved in the development of tornadoes. Oh yeah, and convective instability causes tornadoes? Interesting...
Click to expand...


Wait ... isn't coriolis negligible in the smaller scales? haha
 
Not being an expert here I am under the impression to even get this desired effect you would have to be much higher than 300m and even then the air will just rise outside the tower. Sounds like some wacko's attempt at getting grants based on the public's awareness of the tornado/tornado events this year.
 
As the air whirls around at speeds up to 200 mph, a vacuum forms in the center, which holds the vortex together as it extends several miles into the sky.
Click to expand...
Miles into the sky, huh? What happens if it tries to anchor to a real thunderstorm base? ;)
 
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