Camcorder?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Brandon Goforth
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Brandon Goforth

I'm close to going ahead and buying a new camcorder. I'm looking to spend no more than $1,000. I've heard good things about the Canon HV20/30 for shooting storms, but does anyone have any videos online that were shot with one of these to look at? I'm wanting to see just how well it handles shooting storms, you know, landscape scenes in lower light and at a distance. Granted I'm not going to get amazing quality without spending a few thousand bucks, but I'm trying to get an idea of what handles well in this price range ($700-1,000).
 
I have always shot on Sony cams and never complained a bit. Then I thought to try Canon HV30 (optics)... it does have a great picture quality but the lack of infinity lock is a major, annoying flaw for shooting storms, in my opinion. I also love the Lanc connector with Sonys. You can attach an inexpensive remote control ($30.00 or so) to a handle on your tripod for a very smooth control of your cam.
Good luck with your choice.
 
A friend of mine uses the HV20 and I was impressed enough by its performance to plan an upgrade to one myself in 2009. One thing I keep noticing in these camcorder posts are people always concerned with low-light performance. Why are so many of you concerned with shooting at dusk or night? I only do that when I have no choice; for 90% of my normal shooting situations, it's still day time. From what I've seen the HV20 does as well as any vidcam during diurnal conditions. I haven't seen any HV20 footage shot at night.

I've always been a SONY man myself, but unless I find a suitable SONY offering that can compete with the HV20 for quality and (more to the point) price, I'm switching to Canon. I expect to pay even less than the current market average by next year, so IMO the HV20 is as good a deal as there is, for quality VS price across the board. I know the HV20 has many critics, but I can't just go get a $8000 pro cam because I think I need one. And even if I had that kind of money, I wouldn't.
 
A friend of mine uses the HV20 and I was impressed enough by its performance to plan an upgrade to one myself in 2009. One thing I keep noticing in these camcorder posts are people always concerned with low-light performance. Why are so many of you concerned with shooting at dusk or night? I only do that when I have no choice; for 90% of my normal shooting situations, it's still day time. From what I've seen the HV20 does as well as any vidcam during diurnal conditions. I haven't seen any HV20 footage shot at night.

Since I'm a critic I'll bite. It's not a night/dusk thing with these. It comes well before that, and it's not a friendly noise....it's blocky compression worsened nasty noise. If it is evening and there's a storm...plan on noise way worse than you get on a SD cam in complete darkness. And if you bother with HD you'll probably want an HD TV to view it on. When I view my footage on mine, it just doesn't seem very HD'ish. Like the HD TV just shows off the noise a little better, lol. Day time non-storm shots, yeah, the footage rules from these. It goes down rapidly if it is after 5pm and you are shooting a storm.

I myself am "concerned" with the LOWER light, not even low light lol....because from what I've seen, 90% of the storm scenes I've bothered video taping have fallen in it with both my Sony HC1 and Canon HV20. I just feel a little dumb now having spent the money on what is largely worse quality.

Sure it has its moments with certain storms and lighting conditions where it looks really nice. If you get a flash of lightning, some nasty nasty noise jumps out at you. Almost looks like a plaid shirt or something, funky lines and just crap. Same if you pan inside your car for a second or some darker area. It's like, damn, this looks HORRIBLE. I've found pretty much zero help from slowing the shutter down too. It should help, but what I'm seeing it just doesn't look any better.

I feel most dumb for typing this all once again, lol, since it is on here in so many places now on these vid cams. I'd just go and buy one. I know if I read what I'm now typing from someone else before I got mine, I'd still have went and got one. So it's all the more pointless most likely anyway, lol. Just don't expect bad noise at times, expect what I'd label as "What-the-hell-noise". I still think that when I see it, ugly odd junk. The cmos sensor lightning issue, where it chops bolts in half and crap, well that's hardly a concern to me, since the noise during the fast light changes is so horrible anyway...that alone kills any CG activity, making the storm look worse.

As for infinity lock, I'd think the HV30 would be the same as the HV20. You can push and hold the focus button and an infinity icon will pop up. It stays there until you turn the cam off or bump the small wheel. Since learning how to do that push and hold the button for infinity thing, that's been a non-issue for me.

As for Canon vs Sony, with these cheaper HDV cams, I'd lean with Canon. I have both, and the Canon does better with the color. They are both the same with that horrid funoise(I added two letters for two words....it needs a new label on these).

A fun comparison would be hooking up a Sony VX2100 and one of these to the same HD tv with the same storm scene. This kind of noise rapidly chops away at any added resolution.

Oh yes, and never use city night scenes to gauge low light vid cam quality. If there is strong contrast with most areas black or bright, it's harder to get much noise. It's true with still images too. It's those lower contrast scenes way before it is anywhere near dark that are killers.
 
Mike,
with HV30 when I hold the button it will show the infinity symbol but as soon as I zoom in or out a bit the symbol changes to MF symbol. Is the cam still focused to infinity when you are zooming in and out ?
 
Mike,
with HV30 when I hold the button it will show the infinity symbol but as soon as I zoom in or out a bit the symbol changes to MF symbol. Is the cam still focused to infinity when you are zooming in and out ?

Yeah it should be. In MF it shouldn't change until you spin the little wheel. I should just put a piece of tape on mine then I'll know I never bumped it.
 
I own a Sony HD (1080i) HC5 camera that I purchased back in March at Circuit City. It was on sale for $475 and am glad I sold my Canon GL2 for 3 times that and came out with something better for cheaper. The GL2 had a huge focus ring, which wouldn't lock on infinity sometimes sliding/nudged off and you would have to zoom in all the way, focus, then zoom back out to achieve it.

This Sony HC5 has 5x the image stabilization the GL2 did and in less than 5 seconds, I can have it focused to infinity thanks to the touch screen. I know others hate touch screens, but this one saves a LOT of time. It gets down to a supposed 2 lux with super night shot vs. my old 6 lux with the GL2. I'll never own another Canon camcorder until they do the same as Sony does for their infinity focusing. Even handheld while driving, it picked out powerflashes of the Manhattan tornado without a slow shutter. It does get very noisy/grainy in low light, but most HD cams will I assume, until the HD technology grows more.

The Sony HC5, on some review websites, was a close second to the Canon HV20.
My .02
 
The Consumer HD camcorders straight up suck in low light (not meaning night or even dusk). Under a dark cloud (most chase conditions) things go South in a hurry, it gets so noisy its not even funny. They blow normal SD camcorders out of the water in well lite settings, but as soon as the sun is gone so is your picture, its cool and all to say your shooting in HD but that don't mean much when you take it home and have to watch a grainy picture. No doubt if I could do it over I would opt to purchase a little better SD and wait for the next generation of consumer HD camcorders. IMO from my experience current consumer HD camcorders are about as useless for chasing as my cell phones videocamera. I don't think I would hesitate to trade my HD camcorder for a decent SD right now. This is coming from a user of the HC3 too, which has ranked among the best in Sony's consumer HD line for low light preformance...
 
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The Consumer HD camcorders straight up suck in low light (not meaning night or even dusk). Under a dark cloud (most chase conditions) things go South in a hurry, it gets so noisy its not even funny. They blow normal SD camcorders out of the water in well lite settings, but as soon as the sun is gone so is your picture, its cool and all to say your shooting in HD but that don't mean much when you take it home and have to watch a grainy picture. No doubt if I could do it over I would opt to purchase a little better SD and wait for the next generation of consumer HD camcorders. IMO from my experience current consumer HD camcorders are about as useless for chasing as my cell phones videocamera. I don't think I would hesitate to trade my HD camcorder for a decent SD right now. This is coming from a user of the HC3 too, which has ranked among the best in Sony's consumer HD line for low light preformance...

So to end this thread ASAP...if you can't afford to spend thousands of $$s, you're **** outta luck and nothing you invest in will be worth ****.
 
I just got the HV20 back in May. I've been satisfied with it thus far. I've found that if you get to know it well you get much better results. I'd recommend reading the CanonHV20/30 forums if you're interested. I've learned tons from there on different things to help improve performance (like the mini sdcard/no gain tip...helps a ton with lightning and grainy image). Here's footage of storms I took from the HV20 in June.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5U0PpBfwNU

Bottom line. As has been said by others, you gotta spend thousands to get top of the line low light quality; but imo this is one of the best you'll get for the price.
 
if you can't afford to spend thousands of $$s, you're **** outta luck and nothing you invest in will be worth ****.

Indeed to get great preformance in HD you have to spend thousands, though for those looking to stay in the sub $1000 range as someone who has learned from experience, the consumer HD's are not the best for the price in low light IMO, take what your going to spend on a HD cam and spend that same amount on an SD cam (be it $400 or $1000) and its going to be better in most chasing situations. I look forward to the day I am able to ditch my pos consumer HD and upgrade to something that shoots better video, because mine isn't worth ****, I'd trade it plus some cash for a VX2000 or something similar in a heart beat!
 
I agree with Dustin and would take it a step further to say that to get anything usable for even personal HD video (let alone something you could sell), the consumer HD models don't make the cut for most storm environment shots. Even my FX1 (my only HD cam) has been disappointing in low light (IE most tornado/severe storm situations). I have yet to get really nice HD tornado video, despite shooting a dozen or so tubes with it in the past 3 years. Consumer HDs are mainly daytime-only cameras, as in full sunlight or close to it. Great for things like Mulvane, Arnett, and Hennesey, but useless for anything else. For this reason, I'd stay on the low end of the scale for an HD cam - because between $600 and $1000, I don't see enough improvement in low light to make the extra expense worth it.

I'd go so far as to say that all of the tornadoes I've shot so far with my FX1 the past few years I wish I'd shot with my VX2100 instead. At least then I'd have some decent frame grabs. I have also had many instances in recent years for night/low light scenes that I've just used the VX2100 (Tropical Storm Ernesto and a lot of nighttime winter video) and kept the FX1 in its case. I'd rather have a nice picture in SD than a hideous, unusable one in HD. A nice big 1920x1080 frame is pretty useless when it's total junk, kind of defeats the purpose of shooting HD. All told, the FX1 is several degrees better than the rest of the consumer CMOS offerings, particularly due to its ability to get acceptable lightning video (the main reason I chose it).

Here are some full-size frame grabs from the FX1 that show what I'm talking about. These are bad to begin with, but keep in mind that all of the current consumer HD cams have much worse low light ratings, so they will be even worse than this.

From Protection 4/23/07:
http://media.stormscenes.com/fx1lowlight1.jpg
http://media.stormscenes.com/fx1lowlight2.jpg

Nebraska shelf cloud, 5/23/06:
http://media.stormscenes.com/fx1lowlight3.jpg

I have a few tornado shots that I didn't even keep for my stock archives, they were so bad (particuarly Macksville, KS 5/5/07). Cool tornadoes, but hideous video. I wouldn't even use them in my own DVD. Don't get me wrong, the FX1 has served me well overall - but HD still has a long way to go before true low-light quality (IE worth spending the money) is going to be affordable. This is why I brought up the $8k and $35k cams before - I'll never buy one, but in reality that's what you need to spend to get any usable low-light HD shots. There is a huge gap in specs and price right now between consumer and pro models - not much middle ground.

If I didn't care about lightning, I wouldn't have sprung for the FX1, maybe settling for an HC1 or HC5. I have to be able to get usable lightning, so I had no choice but to spend the money on the FX1. If you go HD at all, don't expect great results around storms.
 
I'd go so far as to say that all of the tornadoes I've shot so far with my FX1 the past few years I wish I'd shot with my VX2100 instead.

I couldn't agree more. I shot one or two air-able videos with my FX1(snow video) but for the most part, I shot with my vx2000. So I sold the FX1, and bought a 99 tahoe with the money. literally.
 
Dan's FX1 grabs look like a dream compared to the lower end stuff like the HV20 and Sony HC1.

http://www.extremeinstability.com/08-6-11.htm

I have several grabs from my HV20 on there, and keep in mind, those are small too. Viewed on an HD tv, nasty. There are a couple stills on there which are obvious. The first 5 are vid grabs, then several more down low are vid grabs. It was far from dark on those first 5 though, like what? 6pm? Before the boyscout camp got hit.

Three more from May 23rd...
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2008/08-5-23-12.jpg
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2008/08-5-23-22.jpg
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2008/08-5-23-14.jpg

Some of the shutter roll frame chopping can be seen on this one...
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2008/08-5-22-7.jpg

I even used a layer mask on that to make it closer to the lightness of the bottom half.

http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2008/08-5-22-8.jpg

Below are some frame grabs from the Sony HC1

http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2007/07-9-18-1.jpg
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2007/07-8-8-4.jpg
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2007/07-3-28-3.jpg


If you keep the exposure dark enough, you can do ok in complete darkness, but that's not the trouble area really. It's the time long before it is dark that is the tough part.
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2007/07-3-28-15.jpg
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2007/07-3-28-8.jpg
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2007/07-3-28-5.jpg
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2007/07-3-28-6.jpg

http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2006/06-4-6-10.jpg
http://www.extremeinstability.com/stormpics/2006/06-4-6-5.jpg

And again, they hardly show the picture since they are 720x480 versions of the full sized 1920x1080 res.
 
and keep in mind, those are small too. Viewed on an HD tv, nasty.

Thats the key, it might look ok when you watch it on the on camera screen or even a small TV, but when you put it on a large HD screen (the main purpose of having an HD cam) it looks horrible. I have a 50" HD TV and when I watch a lot of my video on it I change the aspect of the screen and only utilize 32" of the screen.

This is just another example of the type of noise you'll get, this was just a normal low light tornado scene well before dusk...

52221.jpg


52217.jpg


Expand those on a HD TV and things get really messy
 
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