I can't believe this! Where are the military?

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B Doss

EF2
Aug 17, 2005
111
3
6
Austin, TX
Originally posted by Kevin Bowman
What more can the president do? he declared the areas disaster areas before the storm even hit. he has done everything in his power. there are flights coming into the airport on the west side of the city. he has done everything he can, its not his fault the 100k didnt leave a city that was about to be flooded
I've been trying to keep up with your cross posting. Many, many New Orleans residents barely had the resources to survive day to day living. Their first priority is the governmental checks that comes on the first week of the month. Few of these people have other resrouces. A late check can mean spell a crisis. So. Katrina? The ability to leave in a hurry was impossible.

Remember, Bush is not a king, but a president. A govern met by and for the people. Questioning his policies and rhetoric does not make you a Communist or even a Liberal, but a true, patriotic American. Especially considering that following 9/11, with all cameras on him, President Bush didn't hesitate to be dropped onto the rubble of ground zero where we reassured America, and the world. Congress had a special late night Sunday session to push legislation to have have Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinstated. Yesterday he gave one of the most disappointing speeches since he's been in office. He seemed withdrawn, unaffected, and carleless. His speech went from Katrina to Iraq.

As it's been said, we've heard all about what they're doing. But the pictures being broadcast show what they're obviously not doing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5041100879.html
 
Apr 27, 2005
56
1
6
Burlington, VT
Just going back to the issue of fact vs media spin, which is where this thread was before we started on politics... if the coverage is so slanted and inaccurate, how do you account for this?

\"New Orleans Homeland Security Chief Terry Ebbert calls FEMA's response to Hurricane Katrina an embarrassment.\"

http://www.wwltv.com/local/stories/WWLBLOG...OG.ac3fcea.html

\"This is a national emergency. This is a national disgrace,\" [Ebbers] said. \"FEMA has been here three days, yet there is no command and control. We can send massive amounts of aid to tsunami victims, but we can't bail out the city of New Orleans.\"

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,168112,00.html

Ok, maybe he has an axe to grind... or maybe it's true. Maybe he's just trying to cover his own butt... or maybe he's got good reason to be frustrated because the Feds did not arrive in sufficient numbers, with sufficient resources, quickly enough.

The reporting on Fox News isn't taking potshots at anyone, but they are reporting the fact that communications are nonexistent and that the city has fallen into a state of complete chaos. These both are directly related to a lack of sufficient resources and leadership on the ground three days post-storm.

I'm not suggesting I could do a better job in this situation -- but I'm not in charge of disaster relief for the US, either. It would be one thing if an 8.0 earthquake and tsunami had just destroyed Boston. The present situation is one that has been hanging out there for decades. FEMA itself identified it as one of the top three risks the US faced, and presumably has been modeling scenarios for years. And they had advance warning. I saw Joe Bastardi on Friday, just as Katrina was coming off Florida into the Gulf, predicting the storm would rival Camille in intensity. They knew two days before it hit that a flooded, destroyed NOLA was at least possible. They had as much advance warning and prep time as anyone could reasonably expect, and then some.

And it should not have been that hard to at least ballpark the number of people that would stay put despite the evac. I'm sure there are plenty of statistical models based on past storms.

Disaster relief is about preparing for the worst and hoping for the best. From my admittedly uneducated, inexpert armchair quarterback perspective, it seems absolutely INSANE that things are in their current condition 3 days after the storm passed. From where I sit, for whatever reason, the Feds have dropped the ball in a huge way.
 
Apr 21, 2005
429
6
11
Chicago, IL
Originally posted by B Doss+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(B Doss)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-Kevin Bowman
What more can the president do? he declared the areas disaster areas before the storm even hit. he has done everything in his power. there are flights coming into the airport on the west side of the city. he has done everything he can, its not his fault the 100k didnt leave a city that was about to be flooded
I've been trying to keep up with your cross posting. Many, many New Orleans residents barely had the resources to survive day to day living. Their first priority is the governmental checks that comes on the first week of the month. Few of these people have other resrouces. A late check can mean spell a crisis. So. Katrina? The ability to leave in a hurry was impossible.

Remember, Bush is not a king, but a president. A govern met by and for the people. Questioning his policies and rhetoric does not make you a Communist or even a Liberal, but a true, patriotic American. Especially considering that following 9/11, with all cameras on him, President Bush didn't hesitate to be dropped onto the rubble of ground zero where we reassured America, and the world. Congress had a special late night Sunday session to push legislation to have have Terri Schiavo's feeding tube reinstated. Yesterday he gave one of the most disappointing speeches since he's been in office. He seemed withdrawn, unaffected, and carleless. His speech went from Katrina to Iraq.

As it's been said, we've heard all about what they're doing. But the pictures being broadcast show what they're obviously not doing.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/linkset/2005/04/11/LI2005041100879.html[/b]
from your link
maybe its the anwser that arent what everyone wants to hear. like i said before this is so much bigger than 9/11. 9/11 was a few blocks (in NYC) this is 90000 square miles. No leader of this country has ever had to face a disaster area quite like this before. What does everyone expect congress to do that already is being done?
 

Anonymous

I would expect congress/the president/FEMA to have gotten help there yesterday.........
 
Apr 21, 2005
429
6
11
Chicago, IL
Originally posted by Anonymous
I would expect congress/the president/FEMA to have gotten help there yesterday.........
FEMA has been there since Monday, The President flew over there yesterday and will be there tomorrow. im sure the congressional parties from each state have flown over and seen the damage first hand
 

Anonymous

Originally posted by Kevin Bowman+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Kevin Bowman)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-Anonymous
I would expect congress/the president/FEMA to have gotten help there yesterday.........
FEMA has been there since Monday, The President flew over there yesterday and will be there tomorrow. im sure the congressional parties from each state have flown over and seen the damage first hand[/b]
I understand your point, but the fact the the president flys over to see the damage doesn't help the people who are begging for water and food at this very moment. This is just to much to fathom at this point, hard to get our heads around the devistation.

I was a Bush supporter (believe it or not), voted for him both times, but this has definately changed my views of our president. Hopefully this tragedy will change the way our government spends our tax money.
 
Apr 21, 2005
429
6
11
Chicago, IL
Originally posted by Anonymous+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Anonymous)</div>
Originally posted by Kevin Bowman@
<!--QuoteBegin-Anonymous

I would expect congress/the president/FEMA to have gotten help there yesterday.........


FEMA has been there since Monday, The President flew over there yesterday and will be there tomorrow. im sure the congressional parties from each state have flown over and seen the damage first hand
I understand your point, but the fact the the president flys over to see the damage doesn't help the people who are begging for water and food at this very moment. This is just to much to fathom at this point, hard to get our heads around the devistation.

I was a Bush supporter (believe it or not), voted for him both times, but this has definately changed my views of our president. Hopefully this tragedy will change the way our government spends our tax money.[/b]
what else can he do that hasant already be done
 

Anonymous

Well at least now the media is showing that there are National Guard presence at the Superdome, THANK GOD!
 

Anonymous

I would be a bunch of $$ that the plan that was in place before Sunday is the same plan that's been in place for years. I doubt highly they just suddenly came up with this plan Sunday morning. Disaster evacuation plans are made and filed for years before anyone has to use them. To blame any one administration (be it local or national) is to simply be naive. Do any of us honestly think that the Clinton administration or Carter or Bush I or ....... had better plans?

If this had happened during the Clinton admin, people would be saying he didn't respond well enough because he cut military funding/bases and was preoccupied with the Lewinsky scandal.

During Bush I it would be because of Desert Storm deployment.

The fact is that this happened and there isn't one person or administration or government body that can be blamed. I know it's human nature to want someone to blame. Someone to say "it would have been better if.....". Sometimes that just isn't possible.

You don't go to or not go to war based on what might happen in your country while at war. It's too easy to place blame by saying "well, if our troups weren't gone.....". Well, if a hurricane hadn't hit or if someone hadn't had the plan to build a city below sea level, or if people had listened, or if the levee had held..........you could go on and on and on. But too what end? What's the point. Number of military personnel wouldn't have changed what occured. They still would have thought NO was spared and still have had to deploy them from all over the country to get there (yes, yes....I understand the GA guard is over there, but we'd all be screaming about the CA guard if there was an earthquake and they were gone........you don't determine who goes to war based on "what if's" back at home).
 
Apr 21, 2005
429
6
11
Chicago, IL


military helicopter makes a food and water drop to flood victims near the convention center in New Orleans, Thursday, Sept. 1, 2005. Officials called for a mandatory evacuation of the city, but many resident remained in the city and had to be rescued from flooded homes and hotels and remain in the city awaiting a way out. (AP Photo/Eric Gay)


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050901/ap_on_...cane_katrina_43
A military heliocpter tried to land at the convention center several times to drop off food and water. But the rushing crowd forced the choppers to back off. Troopers then tossed the supplies to the crowd from 10 feet off the ground and flew away.

http://us.news3.yimg.com/us.i2.yimg.com/p/...AKMYB42vvXjiw--
 
Apr 21, 2005
429
6
11
Chicago, IL
Originally posted by Ryan McGinnis+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ryan McGinnis)</div>
<!--QuoteBegin-Kevin Bowman

what else can he do that hasant already be done
Effectively plan. Lead. That is what we elect our leaders to do, after all. Doesn't look like much planning or leadership went into this cluster****.[/b]
plan what exactly? cant do anything if people wont or cant leave.
 

Guest

Policy issues of using military forces for relief

Retired Air Force Colonel here, so I will explain the 'rules' of using military forces in relief situation.

There are two kinds of forces to consider: the National Guard who are 'dual hatted' in that they can be paid either by the state they are formed in or by the federal government. Then there are the active Forces who are paid by the federal government.
If a state calls up its National Guard units, and the STATE pays them, they are extensions of the state's authority. In that case the National Guard has the authority to arrest people. Paid by the state, they are law enforcement officers. Most Army National Guard units train for this role
If the federal government pays them they are no longer an extension of the state, they are agents of the federal government. In this case they do not have the authority to arrest. They are then considered 'active duty'.

Active duty forces have no authority in the United States, except under very limited circumstances when martial law is declared by the federal government. The last time I know of this being done on US soil was Hawaii in WWII. In the LA riots, the National Guard was federalized (without the concommitent declaration of martial law) and immediately lost all their law enforcement authority.

Only the STATE has the authority to activate the National Guard inside their STATE and pay them. This problem is so big it will require more than the Gulf states have, and that means federalising units from other states, hence the necessity to declare martial law.

Here's the problem, roughly 25% of National Guard is already deployed overseas, more are going to be used for months to get NO up and running, and it's the beginning of the hurricane season. By hurricane 2 or 3 there may be no resources left for the states to draw on. That means federalising troops which can lead to widespread martial law.
 
Apr 21, 2005
429
6
11
Chicago, IL
Re: Policy issues of using military forces for relief

Originally posted by Guest
Retired Air Force Colonel here, so I will explain the 'rules' of using military forces in relief situation.

There are two kinds of forces to consider: the National Guard who are 'dual hatted' in that they can be paid either by the state they are formed in or by the federal government. Then there are the active Forces who are paid by the federal government.
If a state calls up its National Guard units, and the STATE pays them, they are extensions of the state's authority. In that case the National Guard has the authority to arrest people. Paid by the state, they are law enforcement officers. Most Army National Guard units train for this role
If the federal government pays them they are no longer an extension of the state, they are agents of the federal government. In this case they do not have the authority to arrest. They are then considered 'active duty'.

Active duty forces have no authority in the United States, except under very limited circumstances when martial law is declared by the federal government. The last time I know of this being done on US soil was Hawaii in WWII. In the LA riots, the National Guard was federalized (without the concommitent declaration of martial law) and immediately lost all their law enforcement authority.

Only the STATE has the authority to activate the National Guard inside their STATE and pay them. This problem is so big it will require more than the Gulf states have, and that means federalising units from other states, hence the necessity to declare martial law.

Here's the problem, roughly 25% of National Guard is already deployed overseas, more are going to be used for months to get NO up and running, and it's the beginning of the hurricane season. By hurricane 2 or 3 there may be no resources left for the states to draw on. That means federalising troops which can lead to widespread martial law.
the illinois national gaurd is sending a bunch of troops
 

Guest

Non Louisiana Troops

It's true number of states are sending troops, but it's unclear what law enforcement authority they have. Most of the roles listed are rescue, security and patrol, not law enforcement except in support of local police. Since there will be a mixture of state funded military and federal funded military deployed, what each individual trooper may be assigned to do will be governed by applicable regulations. For example, Sgt A from Michigan may be guarding an electric plant, and Sgt Boudreau from La. will be patrolling the streets with the same authority as a cop. This is based on whether they're federalised or state activated. These subtleties are not understood by the press or by some civilian officials. To them troops are interchangeable.

http://www.navytimes.com/story.php?f=1-292...925-1074556.php

Posse Commitatus can be waived by the President, I haven't heard of this yet. see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act for more details on the use of military forces inside the US.
 

Anonymous

American Federal forces can't be used as a police force...This is a protection etched into a constitution to make certain no one person/President becomes a dictator through the use of military force.

That said, this is an entirely different situation, and laws should have already been written which state the President has the authority to use the Federal military in cases on natural disaster.

I think they have been so preoccupied with terrorism they forgot things like this can and do happen within American borders. They should have spent as much time looking at both threats, and we'd likely have been able to deal with this disaster in a more rapid fashion.

Pat
 

Anonymous

<begin sarcasm>
Is it too much to ask for our National Guard soldiers to sleep in military barracks with their stuff ready to go at a moments notice instead of having to be called up from their homes and families???? They should at the very least be made to live in the same city as their units.
<end sarcasm>
 

Rob_Davis

Originally posted by Kevin Bowman
some people show it better than others, unless you know him personally you really have nothing to say other than your own opinon
I know him personally, and I can assure you that he is the most caring public official I have ever known. When I first met him, he wasn't even in politics. He was just a guy running the Texas Rangers. And when I was damn near killed in the line of duty, he made it very clear that he cared about me, a total stranger.

You better find something you have a clue about, B Doss.
 

jaybarnsmith

On the political side of things, how come no one is asking where in the hell congress is? They are still on vacation and from what I've heard are planning on coming back on friday. Whichever troll mentioned the getting troops halfway across the world in 6 hours clearly doesn't follow the news. The troop buildup in Iraq took months and that was for 150,000 troops. Compare that to the number of people displaced in the Gulf and one starts to realize the scope of the problem.

For all the people comparing this to 9/11. That was entirely different, America came together after that event but if you haven't noticed it hasn't this time. Also the number of people effected by the actual event is many times higher here than in New York.

An interesting note, today at my high school was the first time that this has really been the talk of the school. Before today no one aside from myself mentioned it. I think there is a general lack of understanding as to what was predicted to happen in that area and what has happened now.

Its my opinion that FEMA likely underestimated the scale and magnitude of the problems. One can only rely on having a plan before hand so much and as soon as one thing goes wrong the whole plan is out the window. I honestly believe that everything that can be done is being done at this point. People talk about the fact that the dead are just being left on the streets, well it ought to provide further motivation for the people to get out of town. How would you feel if you saw them removing the dead bodies while you were without water, food and shelter?

It takes time to get people and resources prepared and on the move. Its clear that the situation in NO has decayed faster than they can get resources in to help. I doubt any of the emergancy plans had troops walking around in body armor with guns at the ready to battle gangs and looters. An oversight maybe, but one can only plan for so much.
 

B Doss

EF2
Aug 17, 2005
111
3
6
Austin, TX
Originally posted by Kevin Bowman
some people show it better than others, unless you know him personally you really have nothing to say other than your own opinon
Likewise.

While on the subject, my brother-in-law who happens to be here in my home tonight, worked with the man for a number of years in his days of Governing. He has a clue, moreso than a single fleeting encounter. He doesn't share your opinion, Rob Davis. Neither do I.

Moving on.
 

Anonymous

CNN just reported that National Guard troops arriving into New Orleans (they mentioned the ones from Arkansas, I have no idea if the order is now general to Nat. Guard troops or not) have orders to "shoot to kill." That's a quote from Aaron Brown.
 
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